4 ms·

Putting aside whatever contracts governments have with gun manufacturers, the rest of the market is largely the average person that uses them for sporting or fo

Putting aside whatever contracts governments have with gun manufacturers, the rest of the market is largely the average person that uses them for sporting or for self-defense. There's not that kind of benign market for Pegasus that the NSO Group can hide behind. The average person wouldn't be using Pegasus (if they could even afford it) to go after drug dealers/pedophiles/etc. Something like Pegasus can really only be used for nefarious purposes. I'm not buying their "People kill people!" argument.

pjmlp 5y ago
The benign market of people that use said self-defense weapons on schools and shopping malls?
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Would you agree, that of the total amount of guns sold, that a tiny percentage are used for mass shootings? A vanishingly small minority of users hurting society. Let’s compare that with the list we have. All the users are being spied on illegally. Some leading to deaths. 100% of use is society harming. Guns are a tool statistically not used often for crime. NSO’s software on the other hand is used for crime exclusively. (I do not want to get into a gun debate. I’m only using guns in my example because the GP alluded to mass shootings)
wongarsu 5y ago
> The average person wouldn't be using Pegasus (if they could even afford it) to go after drug dealers/pedophiles/etc. Vigilante justice certainly wouldn't be a benign market, even if someone did that with Pegasus (or guns)
- goldenkey 5y ago
  I'm confused how you can paint individual violence in broad strikes and promote government violence as sanctioned? Tyranny happens when governments have a monopoly on force. Vigilantism is necessary when the government is corrupt or inefficient. To look past the need for individual retribution and justice is naive. I don't even have to search for 2 minutes before I can bring up countless articles about missing children, murders, thefts, and other immoral acts that the police or federal agencies do not care or have enough resources to address. These victims' only recourse is vigilantism. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower of bureaucracy when you haven't been affected by the corruption or incompetence of the nanny state. Read this for size: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/world/americas/miriam-rodriguez-san-fernando.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/world/americas/miriam-rod...
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    In germany, the government has a monopoly on force. Often referred to as “Gewaltmonopol des Staates.” or “Staatsgewalt.”, it’s even laid out in the constitution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      Which illustrates my point - law has nothing to do with proper morality and ethics. Slavery was once legal. And runaway slaves were criminals. Justice is by and for the people. By all means, for the best outcomes, proper channels are desirable. But right is right, and one should strive to do what is right even when it is illegal.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > Tyranny happens when governments have a monopoly on force. Necessary but insufficient condition. Tyranny happens when ... tyranny happens. [ EDIT: actually, it's not even a necessary condition. Plenty of tyranny has occured even when non-government actors have recourse to use force ]
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      Right. And like evolution, given the necessary conditions and enough time...
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        Glad you agree that a "government monopoly on force" doesn't have much to with tyranny.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    Without a justice system you don't have justice, you have revenge and militias/mafias. That doesn't mean that every so called justice system brings justice. Most countries have very broken justice systems that just benefit those in power. Preventing corruption is hard. Individual violence can useful on the path towards a solution, but it is never the solution itself.

pjmlp 5y ago

The benign market of people that use said self-defense weapons on schools and shopping malls?

imwillofficial 5y ago
Would you agree, that of the total amount of guns sold, that a tiny percentage are used for mass shootings? A vanishingly small minority of users hurting society. Let’s compare that with the list we have. All the users are being spied on illegally. Some leading to deaths. 100% of use is society harming. Guns are a tool statistically not used often for crime. NSO’s software on the other hand is used for crime exclusively. (I do not want to get into a gun debate. I’m only using guns in my example because the GP alluded to mass shootings)

wongarsu 5y ago

> The average person wouldn't be using Pegasus (if they could even afford it) to go after drug dealers/pedophiles/etc. Vigilante justice certainly wouldn't be a benign market, even if someone did that with Pegasus (or guns)

goldenkey 5y ago
I'm confused how you can paint individual violence in broad strikes and promote government violence as sanctioned? Tyranny happens when governments have a monopoly on force. Vigilantism is necessary when the government is corrupt or inefficient. To look past the need for individual retribution and justice is naive. I don't even have to search for 2 minutes before I can bring up countless articles about missing children, murders, thefts, and other immoral acts that the police or federal agencies do not care or have enough resources to address. These victims' only recourse is vigilantism. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower of bureaucracy when you haven't been affected by the corruption or incompetence of the nanny state. Read this for size: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/world/americas/miriam-rodriguez-san-fernando.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/world/americas/miriam-rod...
- Xylakant 5y ago
  In germany, the government has a monopoly on force. Often referred to as “Gewaltmonopol des Staates.” or “Staatsgewalt.”, it’s even laid out in the constitution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    Which illustrates my point - law has nothing to do with proper morality and ethics. Slavery was once legal. And runaway slaves were criminals. Justice is by and for the people. By all means, for the best outcomes, proper channels are desirable. But right is right, and one should strive to do what is right even when it is illegal.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > Tyranny happens when governments have a monopoly on force. Necessary but insufficient condition. Tyranny happens when ... tyranny happens. [ EDIT: actually, it's not even a necessary condition. Plenty of tyranny has occured even when non-government actors have recourse to use force ]
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    Right. And like evolution, given the necessary conditions and enough time...
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      Glad you agree that a "government monopoly on force" doesn't have much to with tyranny.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  Without a justice system you don't have justice, you have revenge and militias/mafias. That doesn't mean that every so called justice system brings justice. Most countries have very broken justice systems that just benefit those in power. Preventing corruption is hard. Individual violence can useful on the path towards a solution, but it is never the solution itself.