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There also is this problem I had (have?) on HN: I no longer dare try to go against downvotes and upvote downvoted comments that I think are perfectly fine. I d

There also is this problem I had (have?) on HN: I no longer dare try to go against downvotes and upvote downvoted comments that I think are perfectly fine. I did that quite a bit - and my voting rights where removed. When I asked by email my voting behavior was cited as trying to be controversial by upvoting already downvoted comments (I don't remember the exact words any more, it was well over a year ago or even much more). I'm not complaining, the HN site owner can do whatever and has to deal with many emails and decisions every day, but it did leave a sour taste.

unishark 5y ago
Maybe more options would work in a savvy place like this to separate out important versus trivial reasons for a vote. I often feel like the most upvoted comments are the most worthless as they just tell everyone what they already think. Whereas downvoted moments are often the ones that simply challenge people and make more interesting discussion.
alpaca128 5y ago
> I did that quite a bit - and my voting rights where removed. When I asked by email my voting behavior was cited as trying to be controversial by upvoting already downvoted comments That's disappointing. I do the same actually. Not to cause controversy but, well, because sometimes I agree and try to vote honestly. Maybe there are malicious attempts that look the same from the server's perspective, but it's still weird.
- IanCal 5y ago
  I think there's two ways it can go, I don't know which was the case here but I can understand them being treated differently if this is what happened: * Upvoting comments because you think they are good comments, regardless of whether they are downvoted or not * Voting more for things that are downvoted than things that aren't, because you think the downvoting is unfair The former is just adding your vote to the pool, blindly. The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system. There's a difficulty here if you tend to align naturally with things that tend to get downvoted though.
  - unishark 5y ago
    I think it's very common and important for people to vote to undo downvotes. I do it. A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something. At the same time, I may otherwise be stingy with upvotes unless a contribution is especially deserving (or makes me laugh, of course, which always deserves a reward).
    - useragent86 5y ago
      > A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something. Yes, exactly: even a single downvote penalizes a comment, making it less likely to be seen by people who might upvote it, and attracting more downvotes from unfair-minded dogpilers. It turns the whole system into a game of chance, a race against unknown opponents: if a comment is first seen by people who like it, it's likely to attract more upvotes and climb. If a comment is first seen by people who hate it, it's unlikely to be seen by people who would like it, likely to attract more downvotes from dogpilers, and it will likely die a quick and permanent death. The system does not "surface" good content. Its design encourages abusive behavior.
  - useragent86 5y ago
    > The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system. That's begging the question: What is distortion in the system? Isn't a system with both upvoting and downvoting one designed around everyone trying to undo others' votes? What if the first 5 people to see a comment hate it and downvote it, and then the 6th person likes it and upvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore? What if the first 5 people to see a comment love it and upvote it, and the 6th person hates it and downvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore? Is it just a race? Whoever votes first gets to decide a comment's value, and dissenters aren't allowed to vote anymore? Or are some people's votes more valid than others? I would submit that the system is broken by design. And how better to reinforce its brokenness than to not allow dissenters to even vote in a manner contrary to prevailing opinion. It's bad enough that dissenters are downvoted to invisibility and flagged by those who abuse the guidelines (once a comment is downvoted and flagged, its chances of receiving corrective attention are minimal). To, on top of that, not even allow dissenters to vote anymore, to try to correct abusive brigading--is such a system not the very definition of an echo chamber? And what is the purpose of such a place?
Y_Y 5y ago
View much were you doing it? I have showdead on, and often I'll upvote and vouch comments I think were unfairly dismissed. Maybe it's an illusion, but I feel the vote counts are often small enough that it does make a difference (as opposed to sites like reddit where I don't bother).
mbesto 5y ago
> upvote downvoted comments that I think are perfectly fine I can't speak for what you are specifically upvoting that gets so many downvotes, BUT it's entirely plausible that what you think is fine is against the guidelines, and hence an interpretation for "being controversial". Good example (that you may or may have not done, again, I don't know): Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information, but please don't create accounts routinely. HN is a community—users should have an identity that others can relate to. Let's say you see several anonymous "green" posts that get downvoted into oblivion but find those posts beneficial to the discussion (which is very plausible btw). Well, as per the guidelines, just creating these anonymous users is a big no-no. Hence, I would deem someone who continually upvoted those as trying to spark controversy - even though their upvotes were probably very innocent. I've been on HN for a very long time - it's hard to follow the guidelines btw.

unishark 5y ago

Maybe more options would work in a savvy place like this to separate out important versus trivial reasons for a vote. I often feel like the most upvoted comments are the most worthless as they just tell everyone what they already think. Whereas downvoted moments are often the ones that simply challenge people and make more interesting discussion.

alpaca128 5y ago

> I did that quite a bit - and my voting rights where removed. When I asked by email my voting behavior was cited as trying to be controversial by upvoting already downvoted comments That's disappointing. I do the same actually. Not to cause controversy but, well, because sometimes I agree and try to vote honestly. Maybe there are malicious attempts that look the same from the server's perspective, but it's still weird.

IanCal 5y ago
I think there's two ways it can go, I don't know which was the case here but I can understand them being treated differently if this is what happened: * Upvoting comments because you think they are good comments, regardless of whether they are downvoted or not * Voting more for things that are downvoted than things that aren't, because you think the downvoting is unfair The former is just adding your vote to the pool, blindly. The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system. There's a difficulty here if you tend to align naturally with things that tend to get downvoted though.
- unishark 5y ago
  I think it's very common and important for people to vote to undo downvotes. I do it. A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something. At the same time, I may otherwise be stingy with upvotes unless a contribution is especially deserving (or makes me laugh, of course, which always deserves a reward).
  - useragent86 5y ago
    > A single downvote can turn something gray and make it appear like an unpopular side of the discussion when it's not controversial at all except in the opinion of one downvoter on a mission or something. Yes, exactly: even a single downvote penalizes a comment, making it less likely to be seen by people who might upvote it, and attracting more downvotes from unfair-minded dogpilers. It turns the whole system into a game of chance, a race against unknown opponents: if a comment is first seen by people who like it, it's likely to attract more upvotes and climb. If a comment is first seen by people who hate it, it's unlikely to be seen by people who would like it, likely to attract more downvotes from dogpilers, and it will likely die a quick and permanent death. The system does not "surface" good content. Its design encourages abusive behavior.
- useragent86 5y ago
  > The latter is deliberately trying to undo other votes, distorting the system. That's begging the question: What is distortion in the system? Isn't a system with both upvoting and downvoting one designed around everyone trying to undo others' votes? What if the first 5 people to see a comment hate it and downvote it, and then the 6th person likes it and upvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore? What if the first 5 people to see a comment love it and upvote it, and the 6th person hates it and downvotes it: should the 6th person not be allowed to vote anymore? Is it just a race? Whoever votes first gets to decide a comment's value, and dissenters aren't allowed to vote anymore? Or are some people's votes more valid than others? I would submit that the system is broken by design. And how better to reinforce its brokenness than to not allow dissenters to even vote in a manner contrary to prevailing opinion. It's bad enough that dissenters are downvoted to invisibility and flagged by those who abuse the guidelines (once a comment is downvoted and flagged, its chances of receiving corrective attention are minimal). To, on top of that, not even allow dissenters to vote anymore, to try to correct abusive brigading--is such a system not the very definition of an echo chamber? And what is the purpose of such a place?

Y_Y 5y ago

View much were you doing it? I have showdead on, and often I'll upvote and vouch comments I think were unfairly dismissed. Maybe it's an illusion, but I feel the vote counts are often small enough that it does make a difference (as opposed to sites like reddit where I don't bother).

mbesto 5y ago

> upvote downvoted comments that I think are perfectly fine I can't speak for what you are specifically upvoting that gets so many downvotes, BUT it's entirely plausible that what you think is fine is against the guidelines, and hence an interpretation for "being controversial". Good example (that you may or may have not done, again, I don't know): Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information, but please don't create accounts routinely. HN is a community—users should have an identity that others can relate to. Let's say you see several anonymous "green" posts that get downvoted into oblivion but find those posts beneficial to the discussion (which is very plausible btw). Well, as per the guidelines, just creating these anonymous users is a big no-no. Hence, I would deem someone who continually upvoted those as trying to spark controversy - even though their upvotes were probably very innocent. I've been on HN for a very long time - it's hard to follow the guidelines btw.