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That's just it: we are not adequately cautious. Who knows what the long-term side effects of the vaccines will be? The fact that those concerns are hand-waved

That's just it: we are not adequately cautious. Who knows what the long-term side effects of the vaccines will be? The fact that those concerns are hand-waved away makes me more concerned. I mean, I don't trust Big Pharma, but at the very least, the FDA stood in their way. This time, the FDA gave them a pass called "Emergency Use Authorization," and that worries me.

zarzavat 5y ago
Covid has long term effects too, seemingly much more than vaccines. Were this not the case then yes the calculus for younger people would be very different. But it seems that everybody benefits.
- ghoward 5y ago
  You can only make that judgment for yourself. Assuming that your judgment works for everyone is highly presumptuous. For myself, I see less risk in going the route where I may not even get COVID at all and risk actually getting it, rather than having a 100% chance of injecting myself with a vaccine that I don't trust.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > You can only make that judgment for yourself. Assuming that your judgment works for everyone is highly presumptuous. Yet people who refuse to get vaccinated seem to have no problem making this judgement for other people that they are likely to spread COVID to, when they fall ill.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      When I fall ill, I quarantine. I do not just "spread" it to others. Other than that, I'm not responsible for the health of other people. They are responsible for their own health.
      - vkou 5y ago
        Covid also spreads asymptomatically, and for a lot of people, days 1-14 of it can feel a lot like a common cold. You need to take preventable measures to not be a potential spreader. Those measures are... Getting vaccinated. Unless you are living in a spacesuit, you shedding viral particles into common spaces does make you responsible for the health of other people.
        ghoward 5y ago
        If people are vulnerable, they are responsible for taking precautions. If I am sick, even with the "common cold," I quarantine.
  - _Microft 5y ago
    With communicable diseases, your decision does not only affect you yourself but the rest of society as well. So we are actually making a decision for everyone with that.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      One of the greatest lies of this COVID saga is that everyone is responsible for everyone else's health. We are not. The vulnerable are responsible for their own health and should take measures to protect themselves, not expect everyone else to do it for them.
      - _Microft 5y ago
        Always Has Been You have always been responsible not only for your own safety but also for the safety of your contacts/co-workers/environment. If you think otherwise, you might want to reflect about communicable diseases/STDs/traffic/gun safety/work place safety/you name it in general and it should become glaringly obvious. Covid safety is not different. For now, the required measures are more severe but it is not true that it is a special in regard of having to look out for others.
        ghoward 5y ago
        COVID safety is different because the measures we are being forced to do is actually affecting our ability to live.
  - CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
    I don't know how you you calculated that risk, but right now the numbers are so overwhelmingly in favor of the vaccines that even with a 1% chance of getting COVID-19 getting the vaccine you don't trust is safer than getting the virus you should trust even less. And unless you live in one of the few countries that have contained COVID-19 (for now), the chance of getting COVID-19 is a lot higher than that. If you've already had COVID-19 you could argue the numbers become less clear.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, that's only right now. Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know. I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. Also, according to some estimates, 60-90% of people have had COVID, so I could have had it.
      - CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
        > You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, How can you possibly disagree with that? There is a several orders of magnitude difference. Data for the USA: there are 6,207 reports of people dying after getting the vaccine (of which only a few have a plausible causal relationship between getting the vaccine and death) [1], while there are 607,289 registered COVID-19 deaths [2] (and yes, the excess deaths do agree with that number [3]). There are exactly three confirmed vaccine deaths in the USA, from TTS due to the J&J vaccine. > Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know I agree, so we should act on basis of the data we have right now. And that data says overwhelmingly says getting a vaccine is much safer than getting COVID-19 on the short and mid long-term. There is nothing that points to that on the long term suddenly the vaccines will be worse than the virus. > I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. There is no evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines increase the risk of blood cloths. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that COVID-19 does. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad... [2] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases_deathsper100klast7days https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=http... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

zarzavat 5y ago

Covid has long term effects too, seemingly much more than vaccines. Were this not the case then yes the calculus for younger people would be very different. But it seems that everybody benefits.

ghoward 5y ago
You can only make that judgment for yourself. Assuming that your judgment works for everyone is highly presumptuous. For myself, I see less risk in going the route where I may not even get COVID at all and risk actually getting it, rather than having a 100% chance of injecting myself with a vaccine that I don't trust.
- vkou 5y ago
  > You can only make that judgment for yourself. Assuming that your judgment works for everyone is highly presumptuous. Yet people who refuse to get vaccinated seem to have no problem making this judgement for other people that they are likely to spread COVID to, when they fall ill.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    When I fall ill, I quarantine. I do not just "spread" it to others. Other than that, I'm not responsible for the health of other people. They are responsible for their own health.
    - vkou 5y ago
      Covid also spreads asymptomatically, and for a lot of people, days 1-14 of it can feel a lot like a common cold. You need to take preventable measures to not be a potential spreader. Those measures are... Getting vaccinated. Unless you are living in a spacesuit, you shedding viral particles into common spaces does make you responsible for the health of other people.
      - ghoward 5y ago
        If people are vulnerable, they are responsible for taking precautions. If I am sick, even with the "common cold," I quarantine.
- _Microft 5y ago
  With communicable diseases, your decision does not only affect you yourself but the rest of society as well. So we are actually making a decision for everyone with that.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    One of the greatest lies of this COVID saga is that everyone is responsible for everyone else's health. We are not. The vulnerable are responsible for their own health and should take measures to protect themselves, not expect everyone else to do it for them.
    - _Microft 5y ago
      Always Has Been You have always been responsible not only for your own safety but also for the safety of your contacts/co-workers/environment. If you think otherwise, you might want to reflect about communicable diseases/STDs/traffic/gun safety/work place safety/you name it in general and it should become glaringly obvious. Covid safety is not different. For now, the required measures are more severe but it is not true that it is a special in regard of having to look out for others.
      - ghoward 5y ago
        COVID safety is different because the measures we are being forced to do is actually affecting our ability to live.
- CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
  I don't know how you you calculated that risk, but right now the numbers are so overwhelmingly in favor of the vaccines that even with a 1% chance of getting COVID-19 getting the vaccine you don't trust is safer than getting the virus you should trust even less. And unless you live in one of the few countries that have contained COVID-19 (for now), the chance of getting COVID-19 is a lot higher than that. If you've already had COVID-19 you could argue the numbers become less clear.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, that's only right now. Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know. I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. Also, according to some estimates, 60-90% of people have had COVID, so I could have had it.
    - CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
      > You say that right now, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines. I disagree, but even if you're right, How can you possibly disagree with that? There is a several orders of magnitude difference. Data for the USA: there are 6,207 reports of people dying after getting the vaccine (of which only a few have a plausible causal relationship between getting the vaccine and death) [1], while there are 607,289 registered COVID-19 deaths [2] (and yes, the excess deaths do agree with that number [3]). There are exactly three confirmed vaccine deaths in the USA, from TTS due to the J&J vaccine. > Until we know more about their long-term effects, we don't know I agree, so we should act on basis of the data we have right now. And that data says overwhelmingly says getting a vaccine is much safer than getting COVID-19 on the short and mid long-term. There is nothing that points to that on the long term suddenly the vaccines will be worse than the virus. > I'm in the age group that has higher risk of blood clots from the vaccines. There is no evidence that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines increase the risk of blood cloths. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that COVID-19 does. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad... [2] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases_deathsper100klast7days https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=http... [3] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm