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>Why shouldn't I be able to "tamper" with something that I own? Of course you should be able to. You shouldn't expect someone else to repair it for free when

>Why shouldn't I be able to "tamper" with something that I own? Of course you should be able to. You shouldn't expect someone else to repair it for free when you botch up the job completely, though. >If they weren't so hostile to modification and repair, the failure rate of people trying to do things themselves would go down quite a lot. Having opened up consoles from the NES era right through the Xbone, I don't think it's fair to say they're hostile to repair. There is a good supply for just about every part that fails commonly in every console from the last 35 years. Anti-repair technology like serialization is limited to the parts that could be comandeered to enable "backups", and the systems themselves are fairly simple for a skilled person to navigate through. Ribbons will typically have clips at both ends (DS being the notable exception) and common "problem parts like" fans, laser modules and HDDs are always easy to remove and replace (with the exception of the laser/HDD in the OG Xbox). The newer consoles do use BGA and 4+ layer boards, but that's to be expected as it keeps the BOM cost and size down.

guerrilla 5y ago
> You shouldn't expect someone else to repair it for free Why are you repairing anything for free? This really sounds like a you problem. Stand up for yourself, charge reasonable rates and stop calling people idiots.
- notriddle 5y ago
  Because you have a warranty contract to fulfill.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    The warranty is void if the seal is broken though, so how is that not a moot point?
    - ben_w 5y ago
      This thread is specifically complaining about the warranty seal being a violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act: > Here are some examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions … “This limited warranty shall not apply if the warranty seal has been broken, removed, erased, defaced, altered, or is otherwise illegible,” where a device cannot be repaired without such effects. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/bus...
- nomel 5y ago
  In some countries, it's law that warranty work is for free. Of course, it's built into the cost of the unit, but they can't charge when the claim comes in.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Are there countries where repair during the warranty period isn't free? I thought that was implied by the word "warranty".
    - tremon 5y ago
      Yes, in NL for instance. If you buy a new car and wrap it around a telephone pole during the warranty period, the manufacturer is not going to pay for the repairs. Point being: not all repairs are due to manufacturing defects -- and neither are defects the only reason to repair something. After-market modifications are also an important part of right-to-repair legislation.
effingwewt 5y ago
Not hostile to repair?! You quite literally needed Torx screwdrivers of differing sizes. Especially back in the early 360 days they were only available in town at like Sears back then, or ordered from China. Also, specifically on the xbox 360 of which, I repaired hundreds over the years, with the rrod and ylod- It was super clear M$ only wanted it sealed (to the point it couldn't even be cleaned- leading to more problems) to hide their shenanigans. The placement of the GPU on the board ensured that eventually the heat (on suuuuper cheap chinese lead-containing solder) would cause the solder to liquefy and ball up, ruining it as it absorbed all the dust and dirt. In fact the solder was so shitty this was why people were wrapping them in bath towels to reheat and remelt the solder to get their console temporarily working again. Ps2 had this problem with YLOD but not as endemic. The only real. Solution was to replace the solder with one with a higher silver content, and mount a bracing X-bracket to the bottom of the MB to secure the GPU. The parts you say make them easy to repair? Those are the off-the-shelf things to keep their overhead down, they actively try and stop you from even maintaining your console. NES, Atari, SNES, PS1 had none of these issues. But as soon as they started cutting corners and shit, here came the 'warranty void if removed' stickers. You know software vendors love this garbage too. Does no one remember when Destiny 1's source was snagged and lo and behold the lies were uncovered. Their solution? A new TOS that forbade you even looking at their code. I can't speak on the new generation of consoles but their track record means I trust zero hardware or software vendors until they earn it.
- hansvm 5y ago
  > Not hostile to repair?! You quite literally needed Torx screwdrivers of differing sizes. The rest of your comment not withstanding, this seems fine to me. You're a lot less likely to strip or damage torx heads, especially when opening it up multiple times, and needing a few head sizes for a few screw sizes is pretty reasonable. They're a pretty standard shape, even if not necessarily in the median person's toolbox. Contrast that with, e.g., Apple producing the tri-lobe screw -- a worse product not close to standard in any circles.

guerrilla 5y ago

> You shouldn't expect someone else to repair it for free Why are you repairing anything for free? This really sounds like a you problem. Stand up for yourself, charge reasonable rates and stop calling people idiots.

notriddle 5y ago
Because you have a warranty contract to fulfill.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  The warranty is void if the seal is broken though, so how is that not a moot point?
  - ben_w 5y ago
    This thread is specifically complaining about the warranty seal being a violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act: > Here are some examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions … “This limited warranty shall not apply if the warranty seal has been broken, removed, erased, defaced, altered, or is otherwise illegible,” where a device cannot be repaired without such effects. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/bus...
nomel 5y ago
In some countries, it's law that warranty work is for free. Of course, it's built into the cost of the unit, but they can't charge when the claim comes in.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  Are there countries where repair during the warranty period isn't free? I thought that was implied by the word "warranty".
  - tremon 5y ago
    Yes, in NL for instance. If you buy a new car and wrap it around a telephone pole during the warranty period, the manufacturer is not going to pay for the repairs. Point being: not all repairs are due to manufacturing defects -- and neither are defects the only reason to repair something. After-market modifications are also an important part of right-to-repair legislation.

effingwewt 5y ago

Not hostile to repair?! You quite literally needed Torx screwdrivers of differing sizes. Especially back in the early 360 days they were only available in town at like Sears back then, or ordered from China. Also, specifically on the xbox 360 of which, I repaired hundreds over the years, with the rrod and ylod- It was super clear M$ only wanted it sealed (to the point it couldn't even be cleaned- leading to more problems) to hide their shenanigans. The placement of the GPU on the board ensured that eventually the heat (on suuuuper cheap chinese lead-containing solder) would cause the solder to liquefy and ball up, ruining it as it absorbed all the dust and dirt. In fact the solder was so shitty this was why people were wrapping them in bath towels to reheat and remelt the solder to get their console temporarily working again. Ps2 had this problem with YLOD but not as endemic. The only real. Solution was to replace the solder with one with a higher silver content, and mount a bracing X-bracket to the bottom of the MB to secure the GPU. The parts you say make them easy to repair? Those are the off-the-shelf things to keep their overhead down, they actively try and stop you from even maintaining your console. NES, Atari, SNES, PS1 had none of these issues. But as soon as they started cutting corners and shit, here came the 'warranty void if removed' stickers. You know software vendors love this garbage too. Does no one remember when Destiny 1's source was snagged and lo and behold the lies were uncovered. Their solution? A new TOS that forbade you even looking at their code. I can't speak on the new generation of consoles but their track record means I trust zero hardware or software vendors until they earn it.

hansvm 5y ago
> Not hostile to repair?! You quite literally needed Torx screwdrivers of differing sizes. The rest of your comment not withstanding, this seems fine to me. You're a lot less likely to strip or damage torx heads, especially when opening it up multiple times, and needing a few head sizes for a few screw sizes is pretty reasonable. They're a pretty standard shape, even if not necessarily in the median person's toolbox. Contrast that with, e.g., Apple producing the tri-lobe screw -- a worse product not close to standard in any circles.