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Have you stopped and maybe talked to someone you respect about these beliefs? When everyone else thinks you are being an asshole sometimes it is because you ar

Have you stopped and maybe talked to someone you respect about these beliefs? When everyone else thinks you are being an asshole sometimes it is because you are. Ive certainly had to face that at times in my life.

LegitShady 5y ago
Alternately maybe the overwhelming social pressure doesn’t necessarily make an opinion true, just popular, or everyone else who agrees is just as scared to risk their careers etc as he is.
- eclipxe 5y ago
  You are free to voice your opinion. Society is free to provide feedback to you on those opinions. If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability. The system is working as it should.
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    > "If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability." Society used to "provide corrective consequences/accountability" for atheism/agnosticism, advocating for socialism and workers' rights, advocating for the abolition of slavery and equal rights for PoC, advocating for LGBTQ rights, and so forth since all of those were violently opposed by the majority of society. By using the argument, the parent poster and anyone else who uses it implies that they would not only would have been okay with suppressing those rights but also would have enthusiastically supported "consequences" for those rights advocates if they'd been around in the era before those people became protected classes. If this doesn't make it obvious why that argument has zero validity, nothing will. What's more the "it's A-OK for society to beat you up for going against the majority" argument is an argument born of _conservatism_, since it literally argues for preserving the status quo. It's stunning to hear people supposedly on the left repeating it.
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    I see you don’t have any understanding that in previous times, being gay had similar stigmas, which was obviously correct according to you - it was just society providing corrective consequences. It’s a bit of a trip to hear people who think they are progressive also think mobs harrassing people is ‘corrective consequences’. It’s just mob rule. The actual nazis attacking people in Germany in the 1930s would have been ‘corrective accountability’ according to your theory. We won’t ever come to an agreement. I think your point of view is repugnant.
    - dabbledash 5y ago
      I was with you until the nazi thing. I doubt GP would condone actual violence.
      - LegitShady 5y ago
        The logic is the same - if the logic works to defend nazi actions maybe you need to inspect your logic more closely.
  - ponker 5y ago
    Oh, like these corrective consequences/accountability? https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjimage-1-2.jpg https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjim... "The system is working as it should."
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    Spot the communist.
  - dabbledash 5y ago
    I always wonder if people who make comments like this are old enough to remember when gay people were considered deviants by most of society.
  - badloginnew 5y ago
    The Scarlet Letter worked well in other words. Maybe we should bring back public stonings, pillory, witch burning and other social credit feedback mechanism. An asshole free utopia awaits!
  - prepend 5y ago
    > You are free to voice your opinion. I think GP’s comment is precisely that they aren’t free to voice opinion. The challenge is that .001% of society is expressing opinions on that. And that tiny number of people making noise is interpreted as society, since most of society doesn’t reeee on Twitter about opinions. For me, I’m not GP, it’s not worth the hassle and frustrating of navigating whatever is going on, so I don’t express opinions. I’m not free to express opinions.
spoonjim 5y ago
No, as was the entire point of my comment, I cannot talk with anyone I respect about these beliefs. And I do see myself becoming more of an asshole, that is also the entire point of my comment. I think it must have gotten past you.
- loopz 5y ago
  Do you speak respectfully when you speak to others, and can you respect others while you speak to them? The problem might be in how you speak, what words and phrasings you choose, rather than the contents of opinions and perspectives. A study after each conversation, might reveal that each people involved might've had entirely different experiences about the conversation. That would reveal the gap.
  - tarboreus 5y ago
    Why don't you pick out an unpopular or unprogressive idea, articulate it nicely on Twitter, and see how that goes?
    - loopz 5y ago
      It's just too easy to troll people online these days. No fun anymore when they just do it to themselves anyway. There's a time and place for all speech. It needs the correct setting, and this is nothing new. That you can use algorithms to rile up people seems interesting though, for weaponization. That'd be fun!
- mnowicki 5y ago
  That's kind of expected though right? "Cutting off the network of people that moderates my views and is making my views less moderate." I understand that people can be harsh nowadays, presumably because they often find the views of others particularly harsh and feel a proportional response is necessary, but not wanting to face that isn't an excuse - it essentially amounts to "The criticism that's supposed to keep my views grounded isn't working and my views are getting more extreme, because I don't want to deal with the criticism of my extreme views". And to be fair I'm making it sound simpler than it is, it's a totally human response to avoid sharing those opinions if it has negative consequences. My only point is to remember it's not the crowds fault if you end up with extremist views, it was your decision. We all have to deal with the fact that the crowd doesn't care about our feelings, only their own views, but we do it, and if our differing opinions are important enough to us then we deal with the consequences.

LegitShady 5y ago

Alternately maybe the overwhelming social pressure doesn’t necessarily make an opinion true, just popular, or everyone else who agrees is just as scared to risk their careers etc as he is.

eclipxe 5y ago
You are free to voice your opinion. Society is free to provide feedback to you on those opinions. If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability. The system is working as it should.
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  > "If you have an opinion that a sufficient cohort of your peers in society feel is out of bounds for where society is headed or not compatible with the prevailing world view, society will provide corrective consequences/accountability." Society used to "provide corrective consequences/accountability" for atheism/agnosticism, advocating for socialism and workers' rights, advocating for the abolition of slavery and equal rights for PoC, advocating for LGBTQ rights, and so forth since all of those were violently opposed by the majority of society. By using the argument, the parent poster and anyone else who uses it implies that they would not only would have been okay with suppressing those rights but also would have enthusiastically supported "consequences" for those rights advocates if they'd been around in the era before those people became protected classes. If this doesn't make it obvious why that argument has zero validity, nothing will. What's more the "it's A-OK for society to beat you up for going against the majority" argument is an argument born of _conservatism_, since it literally argues for preserving the status quo. It's stunning to hear people supposedly on the left repeating it.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  I see you don’t have any understanding that in previous times, being gay had similar stigmas, which was obviously correct according to you - it was just society providing corrective consequences. It’s a bit of a trip to hear people who think they are progressive also think mobs harrassing people is ‘corrective consequences’. It’s just mob rule. The actual nazis attacking people in Germany in the 1930s would have been ‘corrective accountability’ according to your theory. We won’t ever come to an agreement. I think your point of view is repugnant.
  - dabbledash 5y ago
    I was with you until the nazi thing. I doubt GP would condone actual violence.
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      The logic is the same - if the logic works to defend nazi actions maybe you need to inspect your logic more closely.
- ponker 5y ago
  Oh, like these corrective consequences/accountability? https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjimage-1-2.jpg https://www.peoplesworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/pjim... "The system is working as it should."
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  Spot the communist.
- dabbledash 5y ago
  I always wonder if people who make comments like this are old enough to remember when gay people were considered deviants by most of society.
- badloginnew 5y ago
  The Scarlet Letter worked well in other words. Maybe we should bring back public stonings, pillory, witch burning and other social credit feedback mechanism. An asshole free utopia awaits!
- prepend 5y ago
  > You are free to voice your opinion. I think GP’s comment is precisely that they aren’t free to voice opinion. The challenge is that .001% of society is expressing opinions on that. And that tiny number of people making noise is interpreted as society, since most of society doesn’t reeee on Twitter about opinions. For me, I’m not GP, it’s not worth the hassle and frustrating of navigating whatever is going on, so I don’t express opinions. I’m not free to express opinions.

spoonjim 5y ago

No, as was the entire point of my comment, I cannot talk with anyone I respect about these beliefs. And I do see myself becoming more of an asshole, that is also the entire point of my comment. I think it must have gotten past you.

loopz 5y ago
Do you speak respectfully when you speak to others, and can you respect others while you speak to them? The problem might be in how you speak, what words and phrasings you choose, rather than the contents of opinions and perspectives. A study after each conversation, might reveal that each people involved might've had entirely different experiences about the conversation. That would reveal the gap.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  Why don't you pick out an unpopular or unprogressive idea, articulate it nicely on Twitter, and see how that goes?
  - loopz 5y ago
    It's just too easy to troll people online these days. No fun anymore when they just do it to themselves anyway. There's a time and place for all speech. It needs the correct setting, and this is nothing new. That you can use algorithms to rile up people seems interesting though, for weaponization. That'd be fun!
mnowicki 5y ago
That's kind of expected though right? "Cutting off the network of people that moderates my views and is making my views less moderate." I understand that people can be harsh nowadays, presumably because they often find the views of others particularly harsh and feel a proportional response is necessary, but not wanting to face that isn't an excuse - it essentially amounts to "The criticism that's supposed to keep my views grounded isn't working and my views are getting more extreme, because I don't want to deal with the criticism of my extreme views". And to be fair I'm making it sound simpler than it is, it's a totally human response to avoid sharing those opinions if it has negative consequences. My only point is to remember it's not the crowds fault if you end up with extremist views, it was your decision. We all have to deal with the fact that the crowd doesn't care about our feelings, only their own views, but we do it, and if our differing opinions are important enough to us then we deal with the consequences.