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I was done after he actively defended Andy Ngo. I was very much prepared to support this article, but it starts out with comparisons to Maoist China with the mo

I was done after he actively defended Andy Ngo. I was very much prepared to support this article, but it starts out with comparisons to Maoist China with the most self serving example of that regime's actions, and keep going further. J.K Rowling refuses to let the mob 'get her down'. Should Harvey Weinstein have bravely rallied against 'cancel culture'? If cancel culture is such a thing to be feared, why is Amazon Prime still working?

LegitShady 5y ago
Please explain what Andy Ngo did that nobody should be able to have a different opinion of him without you dismissing him? JK Rowling is a billionaire who doesn’t need much in the way of connections anymore, but she is certainly constantly attacked and abused, and has lost many opportunities for standing up for what she believes in. That you don’t care about it and think that amazon still sells her books doesn’t mean a woke mob didn’t attempt to cancel her doesn’t make that true, just means you aren’t paying attention. Comparing either of those two to Harvey Weinstein is the real dishonesty done here.
- Werewolf255 5y ago
  Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a point along the lines of 'never give up, never surrender', I expect I'd be far more open to its message and reasoning.
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white supremacy’. I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement.
    - fzil 5y ago
      That's just weird, does being of jewish heritage make you incapable of being a nazi? There's certainly a ton of polish and slavic nazis. What does Andy being a gay Asian man have anything to do with the claims of him being a white supremacist?
      - drdeca 5y ago
        Insofar as “Asian” is considered “not white”, it would seem that it would be counter to an asian person’s self interest to advocate for white supremacy. Of course, whether light-skinned Asians are considered “white” is a question of an arbitrary social convention which differs not only between groups of people, but also the contexts in which the question is considered. (The concept of “white people” is a mistake, which ideally will be made obsolete.) Also, even if it was clearly against their self interest and they knew it, that wouldn’t strictly speaking logically preclude it. But, if people expect that advocating for white supremacist stuff is usually motivated by something like self-interest, one generally expects it to be, for the most part, (excepting the rare exceptional individuals who have rather unusual motivations) to be people who would be considered “white”. (Though, if someone is “white passing”, in the sense that people might initially consider them to be “white” if judging only by appearance, but might change one’s mind if informed of their ancestry, then such a person might have less incentive to avoid white supremacist stuff than someone who very few people would ever consider “white”.) Does this answer your question?
      - LegitShady 5y ago
        No, what’s weird is calling a religious Jew and a gay Asian man a nazi/white supremacist. It’s ridiculous on its face. They’d have to believe in the righteousness of their own destruction, something neither had espoused. It would be necessary to show strong evidence of it, which hasn’t happened, or else it’s just someone lying about them to discredit them, and doing so in a way that is utterly ridiculous. In this case it appears to be a ridiculous claim with no evidence behind it - just a lot of bold lies from bold liars who are seemingly obtuse in the self interest of their ongoing smear campaign against a gay minority man.
  - listless 5y ago
    I didn’t know about these accusations against him. Can you provide citations?
  - neilsense 5y ago
    And, of course, you have some proof to back this up and prove you're not regurgitating Twitter-mindthink?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "...in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example..." I don't have much background on the Proud Boys. I saw an article about one of their leaders pleading guilty to destruction of property or something recently, and I didn't think he was white. So I'm a little confused about this. I would have thought a white supremacist group wouldn't accept him, not to mention it seems odd that someone would join a group to their detriment.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Why downvote without a reply? I was asking about information related to this.
      - hintymad 5y ago
        Because you asked an inconvenient question that challenges some people's narrative. It shouldn't be surprise to you that not everyone on HN starts with the question "is it true" or "is it a fact", such as did Andy's report on BLM violence true?
        antifa 5y ago
        I'm not particularly aware of why white supremacists hung out with Andy Ngo, or why Ngo hung out with white supremacists, or why Ngo made kill lists for atomwaffen, manufacturers misleading propaganda, etc., but pointing out that white supremacists have a token minority friend or collude with someone who is serving their interests isn't really all that "challenging".
  - scohesc 5y ago
    How is a gay asian man a white supremacist? Please give your sources. That's a bit of a bold claim, especially without providing evidence.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - antifa 5y ago
      https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andy-ngo-fake-articles/#click=https://t.co/FuZSbNfmGQ https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andy-ngo-fake-articles/#click... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-n... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-right-wing-blogger-andy-ngo-to-make-a-cameo-in-video-of-plot-against-antifa https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/andy-ngo-who-became-a-right-wing-star-leaves-quillette-after-incriminating-video-appears https://www.thedailybeast.com/andy-ngo-who-became-a-right-wi...
      - scohesc 5y ago
        Right-wing, yes - but not white supremacist. If you're conflating those two things I think you need to re-evaluate the political spectrum and realize it's a lot more varied than you think.
  - sershe 5y ago
    1) Ngo is not white. I read his book and saw nothing there about "white supremacy". [edit] Ok, except maybe a biased take on Arbery murder in particular. Which doesn't really have much to do with anything systemic, or with most of the rest of the book. He's very clearly a classical liberal, either conservative-leaning or considering the right to be the lesser of two evils. 2) Proud Boys leader (until recently) was Black. Proud Boys are far-right, sure, but you really should stop calling everything you disagree with "white supremacist". 3) Ngo, as far as I can tell, merely used Proud Boys as a "resource" for his own safety and/or under "enemy of my enemy is my friend". As someone born in a socialist country, I cannot really blame him - far-right is evil, sure, but far-left is at least as evil, and I would argue more evil. 4) In any case, the statement "noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" is true. The only framework under which one would need to mention that "but he also offended woke sensibilities in an unrelated/tangentially related matter" is the woke cult, the one that the author (and Ngo) do not belong to. For most of us, it is sufficient to let an arbitrary fact, or an accurate description, stand by itself.
  - lenkite 5y ago
    Please provide some proof that he reported lies. Just merely reporting about matters - even matters you don't like exposed and want swept under the carpet - is not a reason for character assassination.
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  Andy Ngo made his name with this piece of sensationalist propaganda: https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535... He's a serial fabulist, raising hundreds of thousands after getting punched in the nose and claiming to have a brain bleed, but jetting cross-country to Boston a day later. He's also a defendant in civil litigation for his apparent participation in a planned (rather than spontaneous) assault in Portland that led to criminal charges against right-wing agitators up there: https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/1164961745099788288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/116496174509978828...
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    I watched the link twitter video and he never does what they describe “laughing as they plan the attack”. It doesn’t sound like he’s a nazi/white supremacist to me.
    - anigbrowl 5y ago
      You are welcome to reject the views of the person writing on Twitter, who is not me. I linked the video to point out that Andy Ngo was present and party to the planning of, preparation for, and movement to a violent group assault. It seems that you acknowledge his presence there. Ngo chose to omit the fact of his prior knowledge and movement to the location with the Patriot Prayer group from his own coverage of the incident. You'll have to ask him why. For those who are confused, here is another perspective on the events of that day with additional context. https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-right-wing-blogger-andy-ngo-to-make-a-cameo-in-video-of-plot-against-antifa https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-rig...
      - itsoktocry 5y ago
        >I linked the video to point out that Andy Ngo was present and party to the planning of, preparation for, and movement to a violent group assault. You may not like his viewpoint, or his work, but he's a journalist. He's on the ground covering all kinds of protests and riots. >It seems that you acknowledge his presence there. Did you know that there were journalists who interviewed Osama Bin Laden, even after he took credit for bombings that took many American lives. Do you also consider them complicit? >Ngo chose to omit the fact of his prior knowledge and movement to the location with the Patriot Prayer group from his own coverage of the incident. Oh, well then, he deserves to be attacked, assaulted and harassed for that omission, right? There are literally people who talk about killing him on Twitter.
Barrin92 5y ago
It's a very typical kind of piece that starts with a self-evident, humble truism, i.e. "If you don't have anything to apologize for don't, if you do, apologize", and a Hamilton example to kind of obfuscate the tone and then the actual message comes when you bring in Andy Ngo and the 'far-left'. Even the beginning is silly. Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything to the cultural revolution". Okay, then what's the point? It's how all of these articles work.
- alimw 5y ago
  > Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything to the cultural revolution". Okay, then what's the point? He does not say that.
  - textgel 5y ago
    Agreed. This is the paragraph that Barrin92 is trying to missrepresent. > Let me be clear: The horror of Mao’s China was singular. I am not making a comparison to the death and destruction it caused or to the severity of the punishment that the mobs imposed. Instead, I am drawing a parallel (one that various journalists and commentators, including the pseudonymous Chinese-American academic, Xiao Li, have made before) to an instinct—the inclination to humiliate and terrorize
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Igelau 5y ago
> I was done after he actively defended Andy Ngo. If you really think the author did this, please quote the exact passage where you think they defended Andy Ngo.

LegitShady 5y ago

Please explain what Andy Ngo did that nobody should be able to have a different opinion of him without you dismissing him? JK Rowling is a billionaire who doesn’t need much in the way of connections anymore, but she is certainly constantly attacked and abused, and has lost many opportunities for standing up for what she believes in. That you don’t care about it and think that amazon still sells her books doesn’t mean a woke mob didn’t attempt to cancel her doesn’t make that true, just means you aren’t paying attention. Comparing either of those two to Harvey Weinstein is the real dishonesty done here.

Werewolf255 5y ago
Anybody is free to have an opinion on Andy Ngo but calling him, with complete credulity, someone who "became noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" without mentioning his vocal and widespread reporting in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example, doesn't make me think the author is being genuine. If the article had a more nuanced view as opposed to pushing a point along the lines of 'never give up, never surrender', I expect I'd be far more open to its message and reasoning.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  Andy Ngo is a gay Asian man. Any claims of support of white supremacy seem like those calling Ben Shapiro a nazi - ridiculous on their face and guilt by association that doesn’t stand any test of logic beyond grossly painting someone with bad words because they don’t want him to be able to speak credibly. Perhaps the people who aren’t genuine are those who make opposition to antifa the same thing as ‘favour of white supremacy’. I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement.
  - fzil 5y ago
    That's just weird, does being of jewish heritage make you incapable of being a nazi? There's certainly a ton of polish and slavic nazis. What does Andy being a gay Asian man have anything to do with the claims of him being a white supremacist?
    - drdeca 5y ago
      Insofar as “Asian” is considered “not white”, it would seem that it would be counter to an asian person’s self interest to advocate for white supremacy. Of course, whether light-skinned Asians are considered “white” is a question of an arbitrary social convention which differs not only between groups of people, but also the contexts in which the question is considered. (The concept of “white people” is a mistake, which ideally will be made obsolete.) Also, even if it was clearly against their self interest and they knew it, that wouldn’t strictly speaking logically preclude it. But, if people expect that advocating for white supremacist stuff is usually motivated by something like self-interest, one generally expects it to be, for the most part, (excepting the rare exceptional individuals who have rather unusual motivations) to be people who would be considered “white”. (Though, if someone is “white passing”, in the sense that people might initially consider them to be “white” if judging only by appearance, but might change one’s mind if informed of their ancestry, then such a person might have less incentive to avoid white supremacist stuff than someone who very few people would ever consider “white”.) Does this answer your question?
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      No, what’s weird is calling a religious Jew and a gay Asian man a nazi/white supremacist. It’s ridiculous on its face. They’d have to believe in the righteousness of their own destruction, something neither had espoused. It would be necessary to show strong evidence of it, which hasn’t happened, or else it’s just someone lying about them to discredit them, and doing so in a way that is utterly ridiculous. In this case it appears to be a ridiculous claim with no evidence behind it - just a lot of bold lies from bold liars who are seemingly obtuse in the self interest of their ongoing smear campaign against a gay minority man.
- listless 5y ago
  I didn’t know about these accusations against him. Can you provide citations?
- neilsense 5y ago
  And, of course, you have some proof to back this up and prove you're not regurgitating Twitter-mindthink?
- giantg2 5y ago
  "...in favor of white supremacy, with the Proud Boys being the most prominent example..." I don't have much background on the Proud Boys. I saw an article about one of their leaders pleading guilty to destruction of property or something recently, and I didn't think he was white. So I'm a little confused about this. I would have thought a white supremacist group wouldn't accept him, not to mention it seems odd that someone would join a group to their detriment.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Why downvote without a reply? I was asking about information related to this.
    - hintymad 5y ago
      Because you asked an inconvenient question that challenges some people's narrative. It shouldn't be surprise to you that not everyone on HN starts with the question "is it true" or "is it a fact", such as did Andy's report on BLM violence true?
      - antifa 5y ago
        I'm not particularly aware of why white supremacists hung out with Andy Ngo, or why Ngo hung out with white supremacists, or why Ngo made kill lists for atomwaffen, manufacturers misleading propaganda, etc., but pointing out that white supremacists have a token minority friend or collude with someone who is serving their interests isn't really all that "challenging".
- scohesc 5y ago
  How is a gay asian man a white supremacist? Please give your sources. That's a bit of a bold claim, especially without providing evidence.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - antifa 5y ago
    https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andy-ngo-fake-articles/#click=https://t.co/FuZSbNfmGQ https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andy-ngo-fake-articles/#click... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-n... https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-right-wing-blogger-andy-ngo-to-make-a-cameo-in-video-of-plot-against-antifa https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/andy-ngo-who-became-a-right-wing-star-leaves-quillette-after-incriminating-video-appears https://www.thedailybeast.com/andy-ngo-who-became-a-right-wi...
    - scohesc 5y ago
      Right-wing, yes - but not white supremacist. If you're conflating those two things I think you need to re-evaluate the political spectrum and realize it's a lot more varied than you think.
- sershe 5y ago
  1) Ngo is not white. I read his book and saw nothing there about "white supremacy". [edit] Ok, except maybe a biased take on Arbery murder in particular. Which doesn't really have much to do with anything systemic, or with most of the rest of the book. He's very clearly a classical liberal, either conservative-leaning or considering the right to be the lesser of two evils. 2) Proud Boys leader (until recently) was Black. Proud Boys are far-right, sure, but you really should stop calling everything you disagree with "white supremacist". 3) Ngo, as far as I can tell, merely used Proud Boys as a "resource" for his own safety and/or under "enemy of my enemy is my friend". As someone born in a socialist country, I cannot really blame him - far-right is evil, sure, but far-left is at least as evil, and I would argue more evil. 4) In any case, the statement "noteworthy by documenting the excesses of the far left" is true. The only framework under which one would need to mention that "but he also offended woke sensibilities in an unrelated/tangentially related matter" is the woke cult, the one that the author (and Ngo) do not belong to. For most of us, it is sufficient to let an arbitrary fact, or an accurate description, stand by itself.
- lenkite 5y ago
  Please provide some proof that he reported lies. Just merely reporting about matters - even matters you don't like exposed and want swept under the carpet - is not a reason for character assassination.
anigbrowl 5y ago
Andy Ngo made his name with this piece of sensationalist propaganda: https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535... He's a serial fabulist, raising hundreds of thousands after getting punched in the nose and claiming to have a brain bleed, but jetting cross-country to Boston a day later. He's also a defendant in civil litigation for his apparent participation in a planned (rather than spontaneous) assault in Portland that led to criminal charges against right-wing agitators up there: https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/1164961745099788288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/116496174509978828...
- LegitShady 5y ago
  I watched the link twitter video and he never does what they describe “laughing as they plan the attack”. It doesn’t sound like he’s a nazi/white supremacist to me.
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    You are welcome to reject the views of the person writing on Twitter, who is not me. I linked the video to point out that Andy Ngo was present and party to the planning of, preparation for, and movement to a violent group assault. It seems that you acknowledge his presence there. Ngo chose to omit the fact of his prior knowledge and movement to the location with the Patriot Prayer group from his own coverage of the incident. You'll have to ask him why. For those who are confused, here is another perspective on the events of that day with additional context. https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-right-wing-blogger-andy-ngo-to-make-a-cameo-in-video-of-plot-against-antifa https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3apyv/super-awkward-for-rig...
    - itsoktocry 5y ago
      >I linked the video to point out that Andy Ngo was present and party to the planning of, preparation for, and movement to a violent group assault. You may not like his viewpoint, or his work, but he's a journalist. He's on the ground covering all kinds of protests and riots. >It seems that you acknowledge his presence there. Did you know that there were journalists who interviewed Osama Bin Laden, even after he took credit for bombings that took many American lives. Do you also consider them complicit? >Ngo chose to omit the fact of his prior knowledge and movement to the location with the Patriot Prayer group from his own coverage of the incident. Oh, well then, he deserves to be attacked, assaulted and harassed for that omission, right? There are literally people who talk about killing him on Twitter.

Barrin92 5y ago

It's a very typical kind of piece that starts with a self-evident, humble truism, i.e. "If you don't have anything to apologize for don't, if you do, apologize", and a Hamilton example to kind of obfuscate the tone and then the actual message comes when you bring in Andy Ngo and the 'far-left'. Even the beginning is silly. Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything to the cultural revolution". Okay, then what's the point? It's how all of these articles work.

alimw 5y ago
> Bringing up the cultural revolution followed by "obviously I don't intend to compare anything to the cultural revolution". Okay, then what's the point? He does not say that.
- textgel 5y ago
  Agreed. This is the paragraph that Barrin92 is trying to missrepresent. > Let me be clear: The horror of Mao’s China was singular. I am not making a comparison to the death and destruction it caused or to the severity of the punishment that the mobs imposed. Instead, I am drawing a parallel (one that various journalists and commentators, including the pseudonymous Chinese-American academic, Xiao Li, have made before) to an instinct—the inclination to humiliate and terrorize
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Igelau 5y ago

> I was done after he actively defended Andy Ngo. If you really think the author did this, please quote the exact passage where you think they defended Andy Ngo.