5 ms·

I wonder what the radar cross section on this thing is? It's going to be at least comparable to that of a small light aircraft – which are easily detected by pr

I wonder what the radar cross section on this thing is? It's going to be at least comparable to that of a small light aircraft – which are easily detected by primary radar. I think flying this across the med with no flight plan, no transponder, and no legitimate paperwork would be a very good opportunity to get it filmed extensively in-air for free by a friendly European airforce. Quite possibly including an explosive and quick landing, too!

radicaldreamer 5y ago
Wonder when we'll start seeing private smuggling drones made with radar reducing geometries.
- echelon 5y ago
  Narco submarines are already getting quite sophisticated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine No doubt this will happen to drones too.
  - hnzix 5y ago
    The Yakuza have been using drones for short distance drug couriering for a number of years now.
- justin66 5y ago
  Practically speaking, for the uses they're going to put this drone to, silencing its two-stroke engine is infinitely more important than doing something about its radar signature.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Why? Over land? Just another lawnmover buzzing. At sea? Skim the waves.
    - justin66 5y ago
      Lawnmowers tend not to fly overhead. Bound to raise a few suspicions.
eloff 5y ago
The article mentions it does show up on radar. But it also depends on the altitude it's flying at. The friendly European airforce must have been sleeping because the article never mentions any attempted investigations or interceptions by the same. I imagine just like the US in 9-11, they'd be caught with their pants down if terrorists actually tried to use a fleet of these things.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  It may never have flown of course. But here in Europe they usually have only secondary radar active afaik.
ErikVandeWater 5y ago
I imagine cartels have no problem flying lower than the legal minimum altitude (difficult to track because of ground clutter).
- bigiain 5y ago
  Yeah, I'd bet that'd fly perfectly safely at 10m altitude for all of the 200-ish km sea crossing between Morocco and Spain. Set a waypoint a few hundred meters off shore at the destination end and have it climb high enough to be difficult to hear at ground level, without ever looking on radar like it'd come from that far south.
brippalcharrid 5y ago
The dry weight of the [steel/aluminium] engine for a Cessna 172R (117kg) is about four times the dry weight of the entire recommended setup for a Mugin-5 Pro, and the airframe of this UAV is carbon fiber. Some of its steel/aluminium fittings/fixtures that need to handle high stresses look like they would be difficult to replace with low-radar-cs materials, and there is a fair amount of avionics dotted around plus the four VTOL motors, but it's a really paltry amount of radar-reflective material compared to the average light aircraft, and I'm sure you could mitigate that somewhat with radar-absorbent materials/structures. The idea of relying on fighter jets/attack helicopters/SAM systems shooting these things down sounds like an entirely asymmetric and unsustainable state of affairs.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Reading the article I thought they should have started in VTOL mode somewhere near the cost, then dive down onto the sea and fly like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle over the mediterran, climbing up at the other coast and again land in VTOL mode. Now I know ground effect vehicles are a lost art, but I would think collision avoidance and evasion would be simpler to implement by computer vision on-board, while operating autonomously between waypoints and without remote control. edit: something like this [0] https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/ground-effect-drone-flies-autonomously/ https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/ground-effect-drone-flies-au...
justin66 5y ago
Three things. First, the distance between a likely launch site in Morocco and a national park in Spain is less than ten miles. Second, the rated top speed of the thing is over a mile a minute. Third, you're talking about the Spanish Air Force, in southern Spain, in peacetime, not the Israeli Air Force or something. I imagine it's always going to be police doing police work that catch these guys, as happened in this case, and not jet fighters.
- fy20 5y ago
  I'd expect the British have a better view on it, as on Gibraltar they have quite an extensive military presence. After Brexit though, I'd imagine if it's not coming towards them, they aren't going to do or say much.

radicaldreamer 5y ago

Wonder when we'll start seeing private smuggling drones made with radar reducing geometries.

echelon 5y ago
Narco submarines are already getting quite sophisticated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine No doubt this will happen to drones too.
- hnzix 5y ago
  The Yakuza have been using drones for short distance drug couriering for a number of years now.
justin66 5y ago
Practically speaking, for the uses they're going to put this drone to, silencing its two-stroke engine is infinitely more important than doing something about its radar signature.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Why? Over land? Just another lawnmover buzzing. At sea? Skim the waves.
  - justin66 5y ago
    Lawnmowers tend not to fly overhead. Bound to raise a few suspicions.

eloff 5y ago

The article mentions it does show up on radar. But it also depends on the altitude it's flying at. The friendly European airforce must have been sleeping because the article never mentions any attempted investigations or interceptions by the same. I imagine just like the US in 9-11, they'd be caught with their pants down if terrorists actually tried to use a fleet of these things.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
It may never have flown of course. But here in Europe they usually have only secondary radar active afaik.

ErikVandeWater 5y ago

I imagine cartels have no problem flying lower than the legal minimum altitude (difficult to track because of ground clutter).

bigiain 5y ago
Yeah, I'd bet that'd fly perfectly safely at 10m altitude for all of the 200-ish km sea crossing between Morocco and Spain. Set a waypoint a few hundred meters off shore at the destination end and have it climb high enough to be difficult to hear at ground level, without ever looking on radar like it'd come from that far south.

brippalcharrid 5y ago

The dry weight of the [steel/aluminium] engine for a Cessna 172R (117kg) is about four times the dry weight of the entire recommended setup for a Mugin-5 Pro, and the airframe of this UAV is carbon fiber. Some of its steel/aluminium fittings/fixtures that need to handle high stresses look like they would be difficult to replace with low-radar-cs materials, and there is a fair amount of avionics dotted around plus the four VTOL motors, but it's a really paltry amount of radar-reflective material compared to the average light aircraft, and I'm sure you could mitigate that somewhat with radar-absorbent materials/structures. The idea of relying on fighter jets/attack helicopters/SAM systems shooting these things down sounds like an entirely asymmetric and unsustainable state of affairs.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Reading the article I thought they should have started in VTOL mode somewhere near the cost, then dive down onto the sea and fly like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle over the mediterran, climbing up at the other coast and again land in VTOL mode. Now I know ground effect vehicles are a lost art, but I would think collision avoidance and evasion would be simpler to implement by computer vision on-board, while operating autonomously between waypoints and without remote control. edit: something like this [0] https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/ground-effect-drone-flies-autonomously/ https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/ground-effect-drone-flies-au...

justin66 5y ago

Three things. First, the distance between a likely launch site in Morocco and a national park in Spain is less than ten miles. Second, the rated top speed of the thing is over a mile a minute. Third, you're talking about the Spanish Air Force, in southern Spain, in peacetime, not the Israeli Air Force or something. I imagine it's always going to be police doing police work that catch these guys, as happened in this case, and not jet fighters.

fy20 5y ago
I'd expect the British have a better view on it, as on Gibraltar they have quite an extensive military presence. After Brexit though, I'd imagine if it's not coming towards them, they aren't going to do or say much.