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You could write a very similar article from the Russian perspective looking at the West. Just like you can dismiss the Russian ideologies of collectivism as a

by slg 5y ago

You could write a very similar article from the Russian perspective looking at the West. Just like you can dismiss the Russian ideologies of collectivism as a retroactive justification for authoritarian control, you could argue that the West's ideology of freedom is a retroactive justification for oligarchy of the affluent. Even going back to the colonial days "freedom" meant freedom for white protestant land-owning men so was it ever really about freedom? I'm not sure either side of that argument is completely right or completely wrong.

pphysch 5y ago
It's actually not even an ideological or moral issue. Modern Russia is not particularly collectivist; influences of liberalism and Christianity are strong, if not stronger than the Communist collectivism of Soviet times. It's purely an issue of sovereignty. For NATO/Washington, it does not matter how a country is run as long as it is run with significant influence from Western interests. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that brutally limits freedoms and butchers dissidents, yet it gets to be in the "democracy" club, because it does not attempt to defend its sovereignty (i.e. it lets Washington build military bases and control private industry on Saudi soil). Russia, Syria, et al. are democracies, yet are in the "authoritarian" club because they do attempt to defend their sovereignty.
- FredPret 5y ago
  Syria defends their democracy by bombing the opposition voters though
  - pphysch 5y ago
    ...according to the "democracy" club. Syria in the last decade has been the target of one of the most ambitious disinformation campaigns involving NATO governments and media (including Reuters, BBC, Bellingcat)[1], so I would exercise extreme scrutiny with regards to these claims. [1] - https://telegra.ph/OP-HMG-Trojan-Horse-Part-4-Undermining-Russia-I-02-04 https://telegra.ph/OP-HMG-Trojan-Horse-Part-4-Undermining-Ru...
    - FredPret 5y ago
      I guess all those refugees are hired actors. The whole Western world must be in on the conspiracy! I tip my tinfoil hat to you, sir, for uncovering the truth.
      - pphysch 5y ago
        The world is not black and white.
- pitaj 5y ago
  I'll believe Russia is a democracy when Putin is no longer in control.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Democracy means the people fundamentally have the power; it does not mean "X year term limits" or "/u/pitaj is the supreme leader".
    - argomo 5y ago
      Yeah, but the people are not exactly "fundamentally in control" if opposition candidates and critics keep mysteriously falling out of windows, drinking plutonium tea, and accidentally getting jailed.
      - pphysch 5y ago
        What on earth are you talking about?
        robbedpeter 5y ago
        Putin disappears his opposition on a regular and ruthless basis. Russia is no more democratic than China, they've just got better PR.
        pphysch 5y ago
        Actually, Russia and China have awful PR compared to the West. It's so bad that every time you hear something good about either government, you automatically assume it is fake news propaganda. Putin does not disappear his opposition. That is an insane allegation. Are you referring to the Navalny circus?
        robbedpeter 5y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_i... I don't know if you're being facetious or naive, but Putin is a ruthless dictator whose regime is responsible for a galling number of blatant political assassinations. Not to mention Ukraine and nuke testing and state sanctioned hacking. Or the total corruption of democratic reform in Russia. Litvinenko was one of the most high profile, with radioactive tea playing a novel role as a murder weapon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvi... Oh, and China is clearly just misunderstood, they're actually really good for the world! /s https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-camps-prisons-xinjiang-muslims-size https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-camps-pri... https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4250097 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4250097 It's curious how many people reliably show up to defend either Russia or China on this forum. Civilization in modern times is a game of good faith. Both of these countries have unendingly demonstrated their total lack of good faith, without any regard or respect for their erstwhile partners in the west, their geographical neighbors, or even their own citizens. It baffles me that so many in silicon valley are so willing to abandon any pretense at ethics or moral values, of even the most basic humanistic variety, to simply earn a few bucks on the backs of sino slave labor. But carry on, you were telling us all that the concentration camps and political assassinations and imperial aggressions and all that is just propaganda...
- andrepd 5y ago
  Excellent comment until the last sentence. My advice: don't try so hard to pick sides, when both sides are terrible.
  - avmich 5y ago
    Churchill once said "If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons." Both sides might be imperfect, yet it may have perfect sense - obligation even - to pick the right side.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    No, it fell apart earlier. Saudi Arabia does not get to be in the "democracy" club. It may get to be in the "our allies" club, but nobody confuses Saudi Arabia with a democracy. Also: Syria may have elections. That doesn't make it a democracy.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      And yet when the Atlantic elite talks about "advancing democracy", regime change in Saudi Arabia is never on the menu. Funny that.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        I'm not the Atlantic, but it's not on my menu. Not because the government of KSA is decent, but because of how strongly I suspect that it would be replaced by something worse.
        pphysch 5y ago
        Does that same logic apply to Syria?
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        It might.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Russia, Syria, et al. are democracies, yet are in the "authoritarian" club because they do attempt to defend their sovereignty. And yet they all have a net brain drain to the US. Interesting to see people simply... voting with their feet!
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > And yet they all have a net brain drain to the US. And you can tell that they move not because US is free, it's because US has a better life. One evidence: H1B workers cannot vote for at least 5+ years. I am one example. And again, that's exactly why US don't want other to have a better economy, and only want them to have a free society. Apparently some people making policies in US understand how to sustain the leadership position. They are truly the patriot of US. And I deeply admire their dedication.
w0de0 5y ago
You could write that article, make the argument. The ability to do so does not imply equivalence, a balance of "completely right or completely wrong," in which no morally superior position is available. This piece makes the key point against this view: "Conspiracy has replaced ideology [in Russia], and for the most part that serves the Kremlin very nicely. You can argue back against an ideology through its own logic: Communist leaders could, at least in theory, be accused of failing to create the ideal society they promised. Conspiracy negates all criticism by accusing the critic of being a front." Even if one notices the hypocrisy of Western history in view of liberal ideology, one is still supposing that the latter exists to guide the former. This is true even if a conspiracy towards oligarchy exists! The earnest and shared belief in a consistent vision of just society creates the political consciousness prerequisite for revolution or reform. In contrast, to suppose that all actors' motivations are conspiratorial, all espoused values a sham for self-interest and power that cannot be acted upon, is to foreclose the possibility of reform - it is a false consciousness. The kleptomaniac & self-contradictory 'Russian values' quoted here from Russia's new strategy paper expect such conspiratorial thinking from Russian citizens. The text's internal hypocrisy - and its hypocrisy in view of Russian history - do not matter. The response to such criticism is singular, and you have said it: "[all ideologies] are retroactive justification for [oppression]." None have any meaning or application. Pomerantsev enlightens us by showing how this particular nonsense of 'Russian values' exists specifically to justify 'Information Sovereignty,' a euphemism for preventing Russians from hearing foreign ideas - an ancient tactic of oppression by enforced ignorance, dressed here in the finery of 'National Security.'
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  >to suppose that all actors' motivations are conspiratorial >a euphemism for preventing Russians from hearing foreign ideas Is it all ideas or foreign ideas that suffer there?
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Since when ideas have nationality?

by slg 5y ago

pphysch 5y ago

It's actually not even an ideological or moral issue. Modern Russia is not particularly collectivist; influences of liberalism and Christianity are strong, if not stronger than the Communist collectivism of Soviet times. It's purely an issue of sovereignty. For NATO/Washington, it does not matter how a country is run as long as it is run with significant influence from Western interests. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy that brutally limits freedoms and butchers dissidents, yet it gets to be in the "democracy" club, because it does not attempt to defend its sovereignty (i.e. it lets Washington build military bases and control private industry on Saudi soil). Russia, Syria, et al. are democracies, yet are in the "authoritarian" club because they do attempt to defend their sovereignty.

FredPret 5y ago
Syria defends their democracy by bombing the opposition voters though
- pphysch 5y ago
  ...according to the "democracy" club. Syria in the last decade has been the target of one of the most ambitious disinformation campaigns involving NATO governments and media (including Reuters, BBC, Bellingcat)[1], so I would exercise extreme scrutiny with regards to these claims. [1] - https://telegra.ph/OP-HMG-Trojan-Horse-Part-4-Undermining-Russia-I-02-04 https://telegra.ph/OP-HMG-Trojan-Horse-Part-4-Undermining-Ru...
  - FredPret 5y ago
    I guess all those refugees are hired actors. The whole Western world must be in on the conspiracy! I tip my tinfoil hat to you, sir, for uncovering the truth.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      The world is not black and white.
pitaj 5y ago
I'll believe Russia is a democracy when Putin is no longer in control.
- pphysch 5y ago
  Democracy means the people fundamentally have the power; it does not mean "X year term limits" or "/u/pitaj is the supreme leader".
  - argomo 5y ago
    Yeah, but the people are not exactly "fundamentally in control" if opposition candidates and critics keep mysteriously falling out of windows, drinking plutonium tea, and accidentally getting jailed.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      What on earth are you talking about?
      - robbedpeter 5y ago
        Putin disappears his opposition on a regular and ruthless basis. Russia is no more democratic than China, they've just got better PR.
        pphysch 5y ago
        Actually, Russia and China have awful PR compared to the West. It's so bad that every time you hear something good about either government, you automatically assume it is fake news propaganda. Putin does not disappear his opposition. That is an insane allegation. Are you referring to the Navalny circus?
        robbedpeter 5y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_i... I don't know if you're being facetious or naive, but Putin is a ruthless dictator whose regime is responsible for a galling number of blatant political assassinations. Not to mention Ukraine and nuke testing and state sanctioned hacking. Or the total corruption of democratic reform in Russia. Litvinenko was one of the most high profile, with radioactive tea playing a novel role as a murder weapon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvi... Oh, and China is clearly just misunderstood, they're actually really good for the world! /s https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-camps-prisons-xinjiang-muslims-size https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-camps-pri... https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4250097 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4250097 It's curious how many people reliably show up to defend either Russia or China on this forum. Civilization in modern times is a game of good faith. Both of these countries have unendingly demonstrated their total lack of good faith, without any regard or respect for their erstwhile partners in the west, their geographical neighbors, or even their own citizens. It baffles me that so many in silicon valley are so willing to abandon any pretense at ethics or moral values, of even the most basic humanistic variety, to simply earn a few bucks on the backs of sino slave labor. But carry on, you were telling us all that the concentration camps and political assassinations and imperial aggressions and all that is just propaganda...
andrepd 5y ago
Excellent comment until the last sentence. My advice: don't try so hard to pick sides, when both sides are terrible.
- avmich 5y ago
  Churchill once said "If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons." Both sides might be imperfect, yet it may have perfect sense - obligation even - to pick the right side.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  No, it fell apart earlier. Saudi Arabia does not get to be in the "democracy" club. It may get to be in the "our allies" club, but nobody confuses Saudi Arabia with a democracy. Also: Syria may have elections. That doesn't make it a democracy.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    And yet when the Atlantic elite talks about "advancing democracy", regime change in Saudi Arabia is never on the menu. Funny that.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      I'm not the Atlantic, but it's not on my menu. Not because the government of KSA is decent, but because of how strongly I suspect that it would be replaced by something worse.
      - pphysch 5y ago
        Does that same logic apply to Syria?
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        It might.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Russia, Syria, et al. are democracies, yet are in the "authoritarian" club because they do attempt to defend their sovereignty. And yet they all have a net brain drain to the US. Interesting to see people simply... voting with their feet!
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > And yet they all have a net brain drain to the US. And you can tell that they move not because US is free, it's because US has a better life. One evidence: H1B workers cannot vote for at least 5+ years. I am one example. And again, that's exactly why US don't want other to have a better economy, and only want them to have a free society. Apparently some people making policies in US understand how to sustain the leadership position. They are truly the patriot of US. And I deeply admire their dedication.

w0de0 5y ago

You could write that article, make the argument. The ability to do so does not imply equivalence, a balance of "completely right or completely wrong," in which no morally superior position is available. This piece makes the key point against this view: "Conspiracy has replaced ideology [in Russia], and for the most part that serves the Kremlin very nicely. You can argue back against an ideology through its own logic: Communist leaders could, at least in theory, be accused of failing to create the ideal society they promised. Conspiracy negates all criticism by accusing the critic of being a front." Even if one notices the hypocrisy of Western history in view of liberal ideology, one is still supposing that the latter exists to guide the former. This is true even if a conspiracy towards oligarchy exists! The earnest and shared belief in a consistent vision of just society creates the political consciousness prerequisite for revolution or reform. In contrast, to suppose that all actors' motivations are conspiratorial, all espoused values a sham for self-interest and power that cannot be acted upon, is to foreclose the possibility of reform - it is a false consciousness. The kleptomaniac & self-contradictory 'Russian values' quoted here from Russia's new strategy paper expect such conspiratorial thinking from Russian citizens. The text's internal hypocrisy - and its hypocrisy in view of Russian history - do not matter. The response to such criticism is singular, and you have said it: "[all ideologies] are retroactive justification for [oppression]." None have any meaning or application. Pomerantsev enlightens us by showing how this particular nonsense of 'Russian values' exists specifically to justify 'Information Sovereignty,' a euphemism for preventing Russians from hearing foreign ideas - an ancient tactic of oppression by enforced ignorance, dressed here in the finery of 'National Security.'

GoblinSlayer 5y ago
>to suppose that all actors' motivations are conspiratorial >a euphemism for preventing Russians from hearing foreign ideas Is it all ideas or foreign ideas that suffer there?
- emteycz 5y ago
  Since when ideas have nationality?