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This argument is often made and is ridiculous. No one should or is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. But if you have dozens of containers and want

This argument is often made and is ridiculous. No one should or is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. But if you have dozens of containers and want them to be manager in a consistent, secure, observable and maintainable way then Kubernetes is going to be a better solution than anything you build yourself.

tmp_anon_22 5y ago
> No one should or is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. Yes they are. Some developer got all excited about the capabilities of k8s, and had an initial larger scope for a project, so they set it up with GKE or EKS, and it managed to provide just enough business value to barrow in like a tick that won't be going away for years. Developers get all excited for new shiny tools and chuck it into production all the time, particularly at smaller orgs.
- threeseed 5y ago
  > initial larger scope for a project So they weren't trying to run a simple LAMP stack then.
  - naniwaduni 5y ago
    Trying and doing can be very different things.
- debarshri 5y ago
  I have seen smaller RoR, Django or lampstack apps being deployed on kubernetes exactly for reasons you mentioned. It is often pitch as a silver bullet for the future.
  - michaelpb 5y ago
    When Boss says "my idea is gonna be HUGE, so make this go fast", you can either spend 4 hours optimize some DB queries, or you can spend 40+ hours in a broadly scoped "conversion" project and have a new thing to add to your resume, and then spend 4 hours optimizing some DB queries...
    - debarshri 5y ago
      One of the worst, bazooka in knife fight moment was when I interviewed for a company that was a medium scale direct to consumer streaming service that was built some custom resource to create one pod per user, their worst case scenario was where they would have around 1000 concurrent users.
      - alephu5 5y ago
        I worked in a Python web-scraping team doing 3 million requests per day. Their solution to manage concurrency was also one pod per crawl, each with its own DB connection. It really struck me as crazy that everyone thought this was a good idea.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Strikes me as someone buying a massive SUV, to only use it to move one bag of groceries from the store every week. Some day in the future they might suddenly have a family of 6 to feed or have to haul a boat somewhere, so better get the big, overkill car.
    - clpm4j 5y ago
      This describes ~70% of adults in the southeastern US.
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      First car analogy on HN that makes sense. Well played!
    - freeopinion 5y ago
      I have personally experienced the other end of that problem, and it applies just as well to the k8s discussion. When all the kids are gone it's hard to admit you're not a soccer mom anymore and adjust to grandma mode. It can be a hard thing to trade in the Suburban for the Lincoln. Oh wait, Lincoln's aren't the cool thing so much anymore. That whole world changed while I was driving Suburbans.
- danjac 5y ago
  It tends to happen with startups I think because developers know the startup is likely not going to be around for long, or they will move on in a couple years anyway. So why not shoehorn whatever tech you want and have that skill in your resume? Of course now the startup will need to hire for that tech when you leave and the cycle continues...
- jlaurend 5y ago
  Heh, as someone who came very close to doing this (i.e. using k8s for a LAMP-stack type app at a startup), it's not just "shiny object syndrome" driving people to do this. Here's what our progression looked like: 1. Start with basic LAMP app in git that's manually deployed to an EC2 instance 2. Add in CI / CD + CodeDeploy 3. Create a staging environment 4. Dockerize local environment to keep dev environments in sync and onboard easier (really, this part's a gamechanger for a small company) 5. Ok so now we have Docker for local dev environments but stage and prod are managed separately. Can we just run our Docker containers in stage / production? When I researched step 5, the options were basically k8s or Docker swarm but Docker swarm didn't seem battle tested (for prod). k8s was clearly a nightmare for a small team to maintain so we started looking into GKE / EKS -- but EKS was still in beta. Thus we punted. We've actually started using ECS for a newer project and I'd likely go that route for step 5 instead.
dvtrn 5y ago
I agree that you probably shouldn’t but if you think no one “is”, I’d point to my last job, an enterprise that went to k8s for a single-serving php service that reads PDFs. I recently asked a friend who still works there if anything else has been pushed to k8s since I left (6 months ago). The answer: no.
- derfabianpeter 5y ago
  Sounds familiar.
lamontcg 5y ago
I love the way that the Kubernetes debate always immediately devolves into Kubernetes vs. DIY where Kubernetes is the obviously correct answer. Two groups of people shouting past each other.
- FpUser 5y ago
  My argument is that much of web development now often involves insane amount of tooling infrastructure and complexity all for the sake of delivering on cloud, scalable, virtualized, dockerized and otherwise over-processed equivalent of "hello world". And 99% (rhetoric number of course) of needed solutions would be served by a single real server (rent one on Hetzner or wherever) with 0 need to ever upgrade.
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    At a previous company we had Series C financing and enough people to take over two floors of an office building... and our entire SaaS offering for hundreds of white-label business customers ran fine on a couple of big load-balanced EC2 VMs and one big Postgres database with some read replicas.
    - patmorgan23 5y ago
      Yep, HA clusters/load balancing has been around for a long time and will get you pretty far even in some pretty large environments. Hell my companies main LOB app is running off a single Microsoft SQL serve(I know, I know, we have a lot of tech debt we're working through atm and it's on the list to set up HA). The longest downtime we've had was when we had to take it down to migrate it to our new hardware cluster and that was because the data transfer took 20 hours over a 1 GB port.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    Another interesting angle about the single real server is the reliability.. it'll eventually break from some physical cause, that happens, it hurts your uptime. But sometimes with the big microservice/kubernetes solution, the configuration space is so big that miscommunications/mistakes could potentially take you down for more hours/year than the downsides of being single-hosted would. So now you invested all of that effort and for what? One company I worked for wrote a distributed scheduled jobs system that was immune to single-machine failures, it went down like 4 times in a year, messing up my team each time. I was like "guys, if we just provisioned one machine with cron and no failover, it would have better reliability".
rodgerd 5y ago
Alas, a lot of people are. One of the reasons there's such a backlash against k8s - other than contrarianism, which is always with us - is that there are quite a few people who have their job and hobby confused, and inflicted k8s (worse yet, raw k8s) on their colleagues not because of a carefully thought out assessment of its value, but because it is Cool and they would like to have it on their CV.
michaelpb 5y ago
> No one [...] is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. Au contraire! This is very common. Probably some combo of resume-driven devops and "new shiny" excitement.
- rileytg 5y ago
  or if you have a small team that must manage hundreds of these lamps… i started by simple wrapper around docker 8 or so years ago. over the years we’ve moved to k8s b/c it provided essentially the same api we had home grown. this reduced the LoC and moved the complexity of something like dynamic reverse proxy via nginx downstream into kubernetes ingress abstraction backed by nginx-ingress-controller.
  - danjac 5y ago
    That's not resume driven development though, that's picking the best tool for the job when you've outgrown the current solution.

tmp_anon_22 5y ago

> No one should or is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. Yes they are. Some developer got all excited about the capabilities of k8s, and had an initial larger scope for a project, so they set it up with GKE or EKS, and it managed to provide just enough business value to barrow in like a tick that won't be going away for years. Developers get all excited for new shiny tools and chuck it into production all the time, particularly at smaller orgs.

threeseed 5y ago
> initial larger scope for a project So they weren't trying to run a simple LAMP stack then.
- naniwaduni 5y ago
  Trying and doing can be very different things.
debarshri 5y ago
I have seen smaller RoR, Django or lampstack apps being deployed on kubernetes exactly for reasons you mentioned. It is often pitch as a silver bullet for the future.
- michaelpb 5y ago
  When Boss says "my idea is gonna be HUGE, so make this go fast", you can either spend 4 hours optimize some DB queries, or you can spend 40+ hours in a broadly scoped "conversion" project and have a new thing to add to your resume, and then spend 4 hours optimizing some DB queries...
  - debarshri 5y ago
    One of the worst, bazooka in knife fight moment was when I interviewed for a company that was a medium scale direct to consumer streaming service that was built some custom resource to create one pod per user, their worst case scenario was where they would have around 1000 concurrent users.
    - alephu5 5y ago
      I worked in a Python web-scraping team doing 3 million requests per day. Their solution to manage concurrency was also one pod per crawl, each with its own DB connection. It really struck me as crazy that everyone thought this was a good idea.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Strikes me as someone buying a massive SUV, to only use it to move one bag of groceries from the store every week. Some day in the future they might suddenly have a family of 6 to feed or have to haul a boat somewhere, so better get the big, overkill car.
  - clpm4j 5y ago
    This describes ~70% of adults in the southeastern US.
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    First car analogy on HN that makes sense. Well played!
  - freeopinion 5y ago
    I have personally experienced the other end of that problem, and it applies just as well to the k8s discussion. When all the kids are gone it's hard to admit you're not a soccer mom anymore and adjust to grandma mode. It can be a hard thing to trade in the Suburban for the Lincoln. Oh wait, Lincoln's aren't the cool thing so much anymore. That whole world changed while I was driving Suburbans.
danjac 5y ago
It tends to happen with startups I think because developers know the startup is likely not going to be around for long, or they will move on in a couple years anyway. So why not shoehorn whatever tech you want and have that skill in your resume? Of course now the startup will need to hire for that tech when you leave and the cycle continues...
jlaurend 5y ago
Heh, as someone who came very close to doing this (i.e. using k8s for a LAMP-stack type app at a startup), it's not just "shiny object syndrome" driving people to do this. Here's what our progression looked like: 1. Start with basic LAMP app in git that's manually deployed to an EC2 instance 2. Add in CI / CD + CodeDeploy 3. Create a staging environment 4. Dockerize local environment to keep dev environments in sync and onboard easier (really, this part's a gamechanger for a small company) 5. Ok so now we have Docker for local dev environments but stage and prod are managed separately. Can we just run our Docker containers in stage / production? When I researched step 5, the options were basically k8s or Docker swarm but Docker swarm didn't seem battle tested (for prod). k8s was clearly a nightmare for a small team to maintain so we started looking into GKE / EKS -- but EKS was still in beta. Thus we punted. We've actually started using ECS for a newer project and I'd likely go that route for step 5 instead.

dvtrn 5y ago

I agree that you probably shouldn’t but if you think no one “is”, I’d point to my last job, an enterprise that went to k8s for a single-serving php service that reads PDFs. I recently asked a friend who still works there if anything else has been pushed to k8s since I left (6 months ago). The answer: no.

derfabianpeter 5y ago
Sounds familiar.

lamontcg 5y ago

I love the way that the Kubernetes debate always immediately devolves into Kubernetes vs. DIY where Kubernetes is the obviously correct answer. Two groups of people shouting past each other.

FpUser 5y ago
My argument is that much of web development now often involves insane amount of tooling infrastructure and complexity all for the sake of delivering on cloud, scalable, virtualized, dockerized and otherwise over-processed equivalent of "hello world". And 99% (rhetoric number of course) of needed solutions would be served by a single real server (rent one on Hetzner or wherever) with 0 need to ever upgrade.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  At a previous company we had Series C financing and enough people to take over two floors of an office building... and our entire SaaS offering for hundreds of white-label business customers ran fine on a couple of big load-balanced EC2 VMs and one big Postgres database with some read replicas.
  - patmorgan23 5y ago
    Yep, HA clusters/load balancing has been around for a long time and will get you pretty far even in some pretty large environments. Hell my companies main LOB app is running off a single Microsoft SQL serve(I know, I know, we have a lot of tech debt we're working through atm and it's on the list to set up HA). The longest downtime we've had was when we had to take it down to migrate it to our new hardware cluster and that was because the data transfer took 20 hours over a 1 GB port.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  Another interesting angle about the single real server is the reliability.. it'll eventually break from some physical cause, that happens, it hurts your uptime. But sometimes with the big microservice/kubernetes solution, the configuration space is so big that miscommunications/mistakes could potentially take you down for more hours/year than the downsides of being single-hosted would. So now you invested all of that effort and for what? One company I worked for wrote a distributed scheduled jobs system that was immune to single-machine failures, it went down like 4 times in a year, messing up my team each time. I was like "guys, if we just provisioned one machine with cron and no failover, it would have better reliability".

rodgerd 5y ago

Alas, a lot of people are. One of the reasons there's such a backlash against k8s - other than contrarianism, which is always with us - is that there are quite a few people who have their job and hobby confused, and inflicted k8s (worse yet, raw k8s) on their colleagues not because of a carefully thought out assessment of its value, but because it is Cool and they would like to have it on their CV.

michaelpb 5y ago

> No one [...] is using Kubernetes to run a simple LAMP stack. Au contraire! This is very common. Probably some combo of resume-driven devops and "new shiny" excitement.

rileytg 5y ago
or if you have a small team that must manage hundreds of these lamps… i started by simple wrapper around docker 8 or so years ago. over the years we’ve moved to k8s b/c it provided essentially the same api we had home grown. this reduced the LoC and moved the complexity of something like dynamic reverse proxy via nginx downstream into kubernetes ingress abstraction backed by nginx-ingress-controller.
- danjac 5y ago
  That's not resume driven development though, that's picking the best tool for the job when you've outgrown the current solution.