5 ms·

I agree he should have got more, but murder 1 requires intent to kill.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
Then we need to fix the penal code. Recklessness for human life isn't adequately punished, which is why swattings won't stop, and why drunk drivers are permitted to continue killing people.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > drunk drivers are permitted to continue killing people. Driving drunk, and killing people, are both illegal. What is being permitted, exactly?
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    The punishment for drunk driving in US is piddling, because, you know, lack of intent.
    - prophesi 5y ago
      In Cali, there's what they call a "Watson Murder" wherein someone with a previous DUI or "implied malice" will be hit with essentially a second degree murder charge. That said, I do think punitive acts against drunk driving may not change much so long as it's much more cheap/convenient to drive yourself instead of using public transit/rideshares/carpooling. There's also the issue of binge drinking being so commonplace in the States.
      - HarryHirsch 5y ago
        MADD says that the first successful attempt at someone's life in Cali while under the influence earns you at most 4 years in jail: https://www.madd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Vehicular-Homicide.pdf https://www.madd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Vehicular-Ho... In civilized countries, the minimum sentence for manslaughter is 5 years, and that's handed out when two friends are blind drunk and one stabs the other while arguing about soccer.
        pseudo0 5y ago
        Your link says 0-10 years for Cali... Gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated is up to 10, and a previous Watson advisement for any sort of DUI could make it murder.
olliej 5y ago
Serious question - if I shoot a gun wildly at a house, my goal being to scare people, and I accidentally kill someone, would the law consider that murder with intent? Because that's what swatting is.
- skzr 5y ago
  The law would likely find that somewhere between Negligent Manslaughter and Murder without Intent assuming it was truly random and you didn't plan it beforehand. If you did plan to shoot "randomly" at your house, it could support a premeditated murder charge but it would be unlikely. Whether or not you think Swatting is planned in this parallel is up to you, but it isnt a great comparison.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  I thought that murder is pre-meditated, and if it's not pre-meditated it's manslaughter.
  - jeremyjh 5y ago
    There are different crimes that are called murder. Pre-meditated murder with intent is often called first-degree murder but there are other crimes. Killing anyone during the commission of any felony - or even having someone accidentally killed as a result of the felony crime - can be felony murder in some states. In any case there are also other murder charges where there is intent but it was not premeditated (crime of passion - often called second degree murder) and there are may be crimes called murder where there is for example aggravated assault with disregard for human life that kills someone even if death was not the intent. Maybe that is third degree murder.
    - Jetrel 5y ago
      Yeah, from reading up on it, this is often classified as "Third Degree" murder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Deg...
otrahuevada 5y ago
At least in theory cops have agency and the ability to assess wether or not throwing a man into cardiac arrest is actually a requirement at any given situation. How are they not being prosecuted too?
- sparrish 5y ago
  Because they came into the situation intending to save lives, not take them.
  - otrahuevada 5y ago
    Billings said she first learned of the swatting when a neighbor called and asked why the street was lined with police cars. When Mr. Herring stepped out on the back porch to investigate, police told him to put his hands up and to come to the street. Unable to disengage a lock on his back fence, Herring was instructed to somehow climb over the fence with his hands up. “He was starting to get more upset,” Billings recalled. “He said, ‘I’m a 60-year-old fat man and I can’t do that.'” By that point it should have been clear to anyone in posession of a brain in the vicinity that the guy did not represent a threat and his life could have been saved. It wasn't the case. Oddly enough, killing a person is also a crime if you didn't want the situation to play like that. It's called manslaughter when you do it, why is it not for the police?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I agree he should have got more, but murder 1 requires intent to kill. It does not where the felony murder rule applies, though false police reports in many jurisdictions are only misdemeanors. I would argue that a false police report of an imminent violent threat ought itself to be a felony. (And even absent that, I’d argue that a swatting leading to death clearly is depraved-indifference murder—usually 2nd or 3rd degree depending on the particular statutory scheme, US jurisdictions vary on this—at a minimum.)
- fallingknife 5y ago
  Felony murder is still not 1st degree murder, though.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Felony murder is still not 1st degree murder, though. Yes, it generally is (the felony is an alternate way to fulfill the malice aforethought element, in place of premeditation.) Though I suppose some statutory schemes may distinguish them.

Then we need to fix the penal code. Recklessness for human life isn't adequately punished, which is why swattings won't stop, and why drunk drivers are permitted to continue killing people.

dahfizz 5y ago
> drunk drivers are permitted to continue killing people. Driving drunk, and killing people, are both illegal. What is being permitted, exactly?
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  The punishment for drunk driving in US is piddling, because, you know, lack of intent.
  - prophesi 5y ago
    In Cali, there's what they call a "Watson Murder" wherein someone with a previous DUI or "implied malice" will be hit with essentially a second degree murder charge. That said, I do think punitive acts against drunk driving may not change much so long as it's much more cheap/convenient to drive yourself instead of using public transit/rideshares/carpooling. There's also the issue of binge drinking being so commonplace in the States.
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      MADD says that the first successful attempt at someone's life in Cali while under the influence earns you at most 4 years in jail: https://www.madd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Vehicular-Homicide.pdf https://www.madd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Vehicular-Ho... In civilized countries, the minimum sentence for manslaughter is 5 years, and that's handed out when two friends are blind drunk and one stabs the other while arguing about soccer.
      - pseudo0 5y ago
        Your link says 0-10 years for Cali... Gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated is up to 10, and a previous Watson advisement for any sort of DUI could make it murder.

olliej 5y ago

Serious question - if I shoot a gun wildly at a house, my goal being to scare people, and I accidentally kill someone, would the law consider that murder with intent? Because that's what swatting is.

skzr 5y ago
The law would likely find that somewhere between Negligent Manslaughter and Murder without Intent assuming it was truly random and you didn't plan it beforehand. If you did plan to shoot "randomly" at your house, it could support a premeditated murder charge but it would be unlikely. Whether or not you think Swatting is planned in this parallel is up to you, but it isnt a great comparison.
ZephyrBlu 5y ago
I thought that murder is pre-meditated, and if it's not pre-meditated it's manslaughter.
- jeremyjh 5y ago
  There are different crimes that are called murder. Pre-meditated murder with intent is often called first-degree murder but there are other crimes. Killing anyone during the commission of any felony - or even having someone accidentally killed as a result of the felony crime - can be felony murder in some states. In any case there are also other murder charges where there is intent but it was not premeditated (crime of passion - often called second degree murder) and there are may be crimes called murder where there is for example aggravated assault with disregard for human life that kills someone even if death was not the intent. Maybe that is third degree murder.
  - Jetrel 5y ago
    Yeah, from reading up on it, this is often classified as "Third Degree" murder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Deg...

otrahuevada 5y ago

At least in theory cops have agency and the ability to assess wether or not throwing a man into cardiac arrest is actually a requirement at any given situation. How are they not being prosecuted too?

sparrish 5y ago
Because they came into the situation intending to save lives, not take them.
- otrahuevada 5y ago
  Billings said she first learned of the swatting when a neighbor called and asked why the street was lined with police cars. When Mr. Herring stepped out on the back porch to investigate, police told him to put his hands up and to come to the street. Unable to disengage a lock on his back fence, Herring was instructed to somehow climb over the fence with his hands up. “He was starting to get more upset,” Billings recalled. “He said, ‘I’m a 60-year-old fat man and I can’t do that.'” By that point it should have been clear to anyone in posession of a brain in the vicinity that the guy did not represent a threat and his life could have been saved. It wasn't the case. Oddly enough, killing a person is also a crime if you didn't want the situation to play like that. It's called manslaughter when you do it, why is it not for the police?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I agree he should have got more, but murder 1 requires intent to kill. It does not where the felony murder rule applies, though false police reports in many jurisdictions are only misdemeanors. I would argue that a false police report of an imminent violent threat ought itself to be a felony. (And even absent that, I’d argue that a swatting leading to death clearly is depraved-indifference murder—usually 2nd or 3rd degree depending on the particular statutory scheme, US jurisdictions vary on this—at a minimum.)

fallingknife 5y ago
Felony murder is still not 1st degree murder, though.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Felony murder is still not 1st degree murder, though. Yes, it generally is (the felony is an alternate way to fulfill the malice aforethought element, in place of premeditation.) Though I suppose some statutory schemes may distinguish them.