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People will "disagree" and, IMO, that is why we have laws. To resolve the "moral ambiguity" that some folks have. A system of laws is not a perfect, mind you,

People will "disagree" and, IMO, that is why we have laws. To resolve the "moral ambiguity" that some folks have. A system of laws is not a perfect, mind you, but, IMO, its better than nothing. When there are debates on HN about tax avoidance/minimisation, people often claim the problem is with the legislature. Any suggestion of ethics is insufficient; they want laws before they will agree there is any reason for tax avoiders to change their behaviour. In the absence of "moral clarity", laws are helpful. If one does not want persons other than the recipient(s) to read their mail without permission, is it a good idea to let a third party hold your mail for you such that it can be obtained through legal process by a fourth party without your knowledge. "Tech" companies providing "email storage" would never tell you not to use their "service" as it is against their interest.

mgraczyk 5y ago
I'm totally fine with a third party holding my mail. I allow it all the time with USPS. :) I'd like to be able to give my mail to people in exchange for free services. What I'd like are more standard data usage agreements that control what kinds of metadata can be sold or given to third parties. If such agreements were common, standard, and enforceable, I'd happily enter into them all the time.
- o8r3oFTZPE 5y ago
  AFAIK, it neiher was nor is common to serve the USPS with subpoenas or warrants in order to read someone's snail mail. In fact, I am not even sure there is an analogy with snail mail. How many people expected their mail to be read before the internet. Whereas it is well-known that third parties holding email routinely receive such requests. We have no control over what "tech" companies do with the data they collect. As you point out, this is not part of any enforceable agreement. "Tech" companies make statements in marketing and "privacy policies", which they are free to violate unbeknownst to their users, but they generally do not enter into agreements that limit what they can do. It should not matter that the price is "free" because in the agreements they provide ("ToS") you are almost always promising to do (or not do) something. The whole arrangement, the foundation on which the "tech industry" rests, is incredibly one-sided and I am not sure how much longer we can continue down this path with a straight face. IMO, we are living in a "reality distortion field" as Jobs would call it. However there are still some intelligent people around who (let's hope) are not on the take. Check out Lina Khan and Tim Wu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wu

mgraczyk 5y ago

I'm totally fine with a third party holding my mail. I allow it all the time with USPS. :) I'd like to be able to give my mail to people in exchange for free services. What I'd like are more standard data usage agreements that control what kinds of metadata can be sold or given to third parties. If such agreements were common, standard, and enforceable, I'd happily enter into them all the time.

o8r3oFTZPE 5y ago
AFAIK, it neiher was nor is common to serve the USPS with subpoenas or warrants in order to read someone's snail mail. In fact, I am not even sure there is an analogy with snail mail. How many people expected their mail to be read before the internet. Whereas it is well-known that third parties holding email routinely receive such requests. We have no control over what "tech" companies do with the data they collect. As you point out, this is not part of any enforceable agreement. "Tech" companies make statements in marketing and "privacy policies", which they are free to violate unbeknownst to their users, but they generally do not enter into agreements that limit what they can do. It should not matter that the price is "free" because in the agreements they provide ("ToS") you are almost always promising to do (or not do) something. The whole arrangement, the foundation on which the "tech industry" rests, is incredibly one-sided and I am not sure how much longer we can continue down this path with a straight face. IMO, we are living in a "reality distortion field" as Jobs would call it. However there are still some intelligent people around who (let's hope) are not on the take. Check out Lina Khan and Tim Wu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wu