5 ms·

These papers would be funny if you didn't stop to think of all the tax dollars being wasted on all of this.

vnorilo 5y ago
Are you similarly annoyed by the stupid stuff private companies you deal with spend their margins on? Of course, the government has a tax monopoly. But wait, several private companies look like they do too! From my perspective there are more viable countries/governments to choose from than mobile or desktop OSes or online retailers.
- buitreVirtual 5y ago
  As a matter of fact, I am. It's not one or the other, it's both. It's a moral obligation to point out wrong wherever it is. Criticism of government waste shouldn't be taken as an argument against government, like some opportunists do, but as necessary accountability. In this case, the funding for this garbage research (and all paper mills, while we are at it, which are a majority of academia these days) should be reinvested in useful areas like climate change, fundamental sciences (such as physics and chemistry) and technology transfer from science to industry.
  - Wistar 5y ago
    How do you know a government funded these? And which government? These seem to be from institutions all over the world.
  - vnorilo 5y ago
    I respect that. But I would contend that these people made something, learned something, and published their findings. Even if it is all goofy and of no immediate practical value, I wouldn't call it a waste.
    - buitreVirtual 5y ago
      Yes, they learn, and others might appreciate reading the papers too. But I'd rather steer creative students to solve real-world problems or build serious science, and they will learn more about what matters.
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        Go read the CVs of the authors. They are all working on real problems. These are goofy 1030pm fucking around in the lab projects, not the real Serious Work these students are doing.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    Who decides what research is garbage or not? I notice your list lacks any mention of anthropology, history, or other humanities, for example.
    - buitreVirtual 5y ago
      It's not so much about the area, although some areas lend themselves to more abuse. Obviously humanities are important. The problem is the bad incentive system and the irrelevance of the resulting research.
throwawaygh 5y ago
On the contrary, stuff like this happens because of a business model that SAVES the taxpayer hundreds of millions. In CS at least, we pay grad student research assistants close to nothing relative to their worth. And then we work them to the bone. In exchange, students like these ones are allowed to do whatever they want in their free time in betweeen working on actually funded projects. If you can find an alternative model that allows me to hire kids who have 200k offers at 30k-40k and get 50+ hours of work out of them, please let me know. Even if these kids work on these projects during the 9-5 day — and I kind of doubt it, these are all probably “fucking around in the lab at 1030pm” projects — we’re still getting a killing by calling them students instead of SWEs. I’ve advised exactly zero students who didn’t have multiple offers in the 200s when they started their phd, and never paid more than 45k. They could spend like most of their time on BS and I’d still be getting an amazing deal. Kids using their free time to do stupid/fun projects in between working for the taxpayers at a REALLY FUCKING STEEP discount is not an example of government waste. And if you start getting greedy by treating phd students like civil servants, well, better also be willing to pay six figures and a pension. Spoiler: you’re not going to save money.
- buitreVirtual 5y ago
  Highlighting the cost of opportunity of hiring these students doesn't make the irrelevance problem of a lot of modern research any better. I'd rather teach students to work on practical or fundamental problems and change the incentive system to do real, long-term research projects rather than pumping papers to boost up the advisor's resume and the institutional numbers. While you mention price tag, the student gets only a small part of all the funding. Most of the money goes to the institution, not to mention the advisor's summer salary.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    All of those students ARE working on real problems. These papers are fun asides, not the core of the research agendas. Stop with the professional attacks against researchers until you at least take the time to read their CVs. What you we doing here is attacking peoples professional reputation. And you’re doing it without knowing anything about them. Stop. At least half the money goes to the student in stipend+core benefits, and another third covers fringe benefits and overhead - lights, bathrooms, offices, security, data centers, travel, … It’s pretty common for the total cost of an employee to be 1.5x+ their salary. Sometimes grants fund faculty summer salaries, but I kind of doubt those faculty spent any time on these specific projects.

Are you similarly annoyed by the stupid stuff private companies you deal with spend their margins on? Of course, the government has a tax monopoly. But wait, several private companies look like they do too! From my perspective there are more viable countries/governments to choose from than mobile or desktop OSes or online retailers.

buitreVirtual 5y ago
As a matter of fact, I am. It's not one or the other, it's both. It's a moral obligation to point out wrong wherever it is. Criticism of government waste shouldn't be taken as an argument against government, like some opportunists do, but as necessary accountability. In this case, the funding for this garbage research (and all paper mills, while we are at it, which are a majority of academia these days) should be reinvested in useful areas like climate change, fundamental sciences (such as physics and chemistry) and technology transfer from science to industry.
- Wistar 5y ago
  How do you know a government funded these? And which government? These seem to be from institutions all over the world.
- vnorilo 5y ago
  I respect that. But I would contend that these people made something, learned something, and published their findings. Even if it is all goofy and of no immediate practical value, I wouldn't call it a waste.
  - buitreVirtual 5y ago
    Yes, they learn, and others might appreciate reading the papers too. But I'd rather steer creative students to solve real-world problems or build serious science, and they will learn more about what matters.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      Go read the CVs of the authors. They are all working on real problems. These are goofy 1030pm fucking around in the lab projects, not the real Serious Work these students are doing.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  Who decides what research is garbage or not? I notice your list lacks any mention of anthropology, history, or other humanities, for example.
  - buitreVirtual 5y ago
    It's not so much about the area, although some areas lend themselves to more abuse. Obviously humanities are important. The problem is the bad incentive system and the irrelevance of the resulting research.

throwawaygh 5y ago

On the contrary, stuff like this happens because of a business model that SAVES the taxpayer hundreds of millions. In CS at least, we pay grad student research assistants close to nothing relative to their worth. And then we work them to the bone. In exchange, students like these ones are allowed to do whatever they want in their free time in betweeen working on actually funded projects. If you can find an alternative model that allows me to hire kids who have 200k offers at 30k-40k and get 50+ hours of work out of them, please let me know. Even if these kids work on these projects during the 9-5 day — and I kind of doubt it, these are all probably “fucking around in the lab at 1030pm” projects — we’re still getting a killing by calling them students instead of SWEs. I’ve advised exactly zero students who didn’t have multiple offers in the 200s when they started their phd, and never paid more than 45k. They could spend like most of their time on BS and I’d still be getting an amazing deal. Kids using their free time to do stupid/fun projects in between working for the taxpayers at a REALLY FUCKING STEEP discount is not an example of government waste. And if you start getting greedy by treating phd students like civil servants, well, better also be willing to pay six figures and a pension. Spoiler: you’re not going to save money.

buitreVirtual 5y ago
Highlighting the cost of opportunity of hiring these students doesn't make the irrelevance problem of a lot of modern research any better. I'd rather teach students to work on practical or fundamental problems and change the incentive system to do real, long-term research projects rather than pumping papers to boost up the advisor's resume and the institutional numbers. While you mention price tag, the student gets only a small part of all the funding. Most of the money goes to the institution, not to mention the advisor's summer salary.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  All of those students ARE working on real problems. These papers are fun asides, not the core of the research agendas. Stop with the professional attacks against researchers until you at least take the time to read their CVs. What you we doing here is attacking peoples professional reputation. And you’re doing it without knowing anything about them. Stop. At least half the money goes to the student in stipend+core benefits, and another third covers fringe benefits and overhead - lights, bathrooms, offices, security, data centers, travel, … It’s pretty common for the total cost of an employee to be 1.5x+ their salary. Sometimes grants fund faculty summer salaries, but I kind of doubt those faculty spent any time on these specific projects.