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It's tiresome. You can't use the image of a Native American as a symbol of strength and bravery as was done by sports teams and clubs -- despite the explicit i

It's tiresome. You can't use the image of a Native American as a symbol of strength and bravery as was done by sports teams and clubs -- despite the explicit intention of honor, it's cast as an insult (the Washington Redskins was an outlier and the antithesis of this -- good riddance to them and their ridiculous logo). A man builds a monument to a famous Native American, and his stated intent is to honor and somehow try and compensate for the wrongs done to them. Naaah, he's bad, too. When I went to summer camp as a kid, the cabins were divided in two (how they were constructed), with one side being the Comanches, and the other side the Apaches. The idea was strength and bravery (as practically all such references were). Never ever was any of that about denigrating or insulting a group. Do people want their mascot to be a symbol of someone they hate or belittle? Of course not. Anyway, I'm sure that's all gone now, too. Fine. I guess we should topple all the monuments built for the Indians along with all the other statues of 18th and 19th century Americans. Let's think of the Indians only as victims (there is no pride in victim-hood, and it implies weakness); or, maybe keep them so that people might be able to gain some insight into history.

apocalypstyx 5y ago
> It's tiresome. You can't use the image of a Native American as a symbol of strength and bravery as was done by sports teams and clubs -- despite the explicit intention of honor The thing I keep thinking about, in regards to this subject, is there seems an implicit backhandedness even in the case of honor. It could be argued we do the same with animals, take the image of the powerful thing that could kill us, and totemize it. However, the two things implicit here are that we respect it because we fear it and, conversely, we honor it after we have beaten it (and perhaps especially because we have beaten it); we honor the spirit of the wolf by dancing around a fire with the hide of one turned into a headdress.
- cherrycherry98 5y ago
  Is this not reading too much into it? How many sports teams in the US use Vikings, Spartans, or Trojans as mascots? To my knowledge "we" (whoever that is supposed to mean) never defeated these people. They are generally associated by the public as having been fierce warriors.
  - apocalypstyx 5y ago
    I state "we" because I think it could be argued to be a generic human practice overall, to one degree or another (wearing a wolfskin as described could be as easily attributed to any culture present where wolfs have existed, whether in regards to American or European history.) In regards to Vikings and Spartans, etc, I would say there is appropriation here nonetheless, the appropriation of legacy. The whole notion of "Western thought" is an appropriated amalgam: we are not Greek (and many Anglo European cultures have reject the notion of Grecians being "white" to varying degrees, but we still use "deep time" to anchor ourselves, justify ourselves. In this way, we don't have to justify that we are "creating something new." Christianity may be the best case in point: it anchors itself to the ancientness of the Torah, yet contradicts its history at will, but this doesn't matter, the anchor remains. The two can coexist. We can claim others' past glories as our own, and celebrate "our" own. (And in the cultural sense the conquering of the Americas is something that is celebrated, the overcoming of the "Indian as Other to the American self," as I once heard it put.
  - mewse-hn 5y ago
    Your three examples are historical civilizations rather than current, living indigenous tribes. I keep thinking of the "Washington Caucasians" parody shirt when this discussion comes up.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    Do you think the Spartans would feel honored if some 3rd class high-school competitive walking club in Whatchamacallit, IL labels itself 'The Whatchamacallit Spartans'?
carabiner 5y ago
This doesn't seem to relate to the article's content. FWIW, native tribes of the US have long honored their images as symbols of strength and as warriors, which is why the US military continues to name helicopters after them: https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/the-reason-army-helicopters-are-named-after-native-tribes-will-make-you-smile/ https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/the-reason-arm...
anyonecancode 5y ago
I think you're right that pretty much any approach to Native Americans by non-Native Americans is going to end up being problematic -- but is that really so surprising, given the immensity of what happened? How to even begin making amends for a multi-century campaign that literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations off the face of the earth? Massive reparations maybe? Massive land reform? If we're not talking about actions at that scale, then isn't any monument, memorial, or other form of honor little more than a sop and, arguably, more about assuaging the feelings of non-Natives?
- ryandrake 5y ago
  > How to even begin making amends for a multi-century campaign that literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations off the face of the earth? Massive reparations maybe? Massive land reform? This is the right question. What is an effective process for the descendants of oppressors and the descendants of the oppressed make amends and move past it? If we can't answer this, our descendants will be quarreling about it forever. 1000 years from now, someone's going to say "Well my Native American great, great, great X 40 grandfather was oppressed by your white great, great, great X 40 grandfather, therefore blah blah blah." It might never end. There are feuds today that go back 1000 years. It's kind of ridiculous. How do you solve it?
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    This makes it seem like the injustices are all ancient, when this story is an example of non-Indians profiting off the continued misery of Indians. Both government and private oppression is still common, the first act should be resolving as much of that as possible.
- cuakknife 5y ago
  >literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations You're thinking about the USA. Other native american cultures in America (the continent) faced different degrees of destruction, but I wouldn't say "literally erased" them.
nextaccountic 5y ago
I think you are misrepresenting the reasons people might object. From Wikipedia I gather 4 main reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse_Memorial#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse_Memorial#Controver... (1) > Crazy Horse resisted being photographed and was deliberately buried where his grave would not be found. Ziolkowski envisioned the monument as a metaphoric tribute to the spirit of Crazy Horse and Native Americans. He reportedly said, "My lands are where my dead lie buried." His extended hand on the monument is to symbolize that statement.[18] .. (2) > Elaine Quiver, a descendant of one of Crazy Horse's aunts,[24] said in 2003 that the elder Standing Bear should not have independently petitioned Ziolkowski to create the memorial, because Lakota culture dictates consensus from family members for such a decision, which was not obtained before the first rock was dynamited in 1948.[25] She said: > > They don't respect our culture because we didn't give permission for someone to carve the sacred Black Hills where our burial grounds are. They were there for us to enjoy and they were there for us to pray. But it wasn't meant to be carved into images, which is very wrong for all of us. The more I think about it, the more it's a desecration of our Indian culture. Not just Crazy Horse, but all of us.[25] .. (3) > Seth Big Crow, whose great-grandmother was an aunt of Crazy Horse's, said he wondered about the millions of dollars which the Ziolkowski family had collected from the visitor center and shops associated with the memorial, and "the amount of money being generated by his ancestor's name". He said: > > Or did it give them free hand to try to take over the name and make money off it as long as they're alive and we're alive? When you start making money rather than to try to complete the project, that's when, to me, it's going off in the wrong direction.[25] .. (4) > Other traditional Lakota oppose the memorial. In his 1972 autobiography, John Fire Lame Deer, a Lakota medicine man, said: "The whole idea of making a beautiful wild mountain into a statue of him is a pollution of the landscape. It is against the spirit of Crazy Horse."[26] In a 2001 interview, Lakota activist Russell Means said: "Imagine going to the holy land in Israel, whether you're a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, and start carving up the mountain of Zion. It's an insult to our entire being. It's bad enough getting four white faces carved in up there, the shrine of hypocrisy."[27] In his 2019 New Yorker article, ‘Who Speaks for Crazy Horse?’, author Brooke Jarvis states: “On Pine Ridge and in Rapid City, I heard a number of Lakota say that the memorial has become a tribute not to Crazy Horse but to Ziolkowski and his family”.[28] -- First, he deliberately sought to not have a place of honor for himself. Building one is incredibly disrespectful. Second, his family wasn't consulted. That was too disrespectful. Third, the builder is making bank on indigenous history. Fourth, and crucially, this is a complete pollution of the landscape done essentially for vanity. This is maddening. Note that those four reasons have absolutely nothing to do with any other Native American statue ever. Though I would agree that the representation of Native Americans done by non-native Americans can often be disrespectful (for specific reasons and not because it's a problem in itself)
nautilius 5y ago
These are human beings, and deserve to be treated with respect. Misusing them as a patronizing token of whatever it is you think is disrespectful. It's the same thing as 'Asians are good at math', 'Irish are drunk', 'Germans are Nazis - but well organized'. Leave them be. Of course it gets more complicated by their history in the U.S. Imagine Germany erecting a statue of a cartoon Jew, with big nose and everything, in front of some stock exchange. "But they're good with money!".
nautilius 5y ago
It's pretty simple, they're humans, not mascots. Do you think Comanches felt honored that eplanit in their summer camp won the hot-dog eating contest 'for' the Comanches? Do you think a single Native will bat an eye if eplanit no longer wears an 'Apaches are strong' T-Shirt? You want to honor the Natives? Do something that helps them legislatively, e.g. change the boundary conditions that would allow for houses to be bought and generational wealth be accumulated in Reservations. And frankly, what people want their mascots to be is hardly the imperative here. It stops at the point when they choose real life human beings without consent and likely against their will. I don't understand what's so complicated about it.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  > You want to honor the Natives? Do something that helps them legislatively, e.g. change the boundary conditions that would allow for houses to be bought and generational wealth be accumulated in Reservations. at least here in South Dakota, the problems with the reservations are not of the legislative variety
  - BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
    ... but they are?

apocalypstyx 5y ago

> It's tiresome. You can't use the image of a Native American as a symbol of strength and bravery as was done by sports teams and clubs -- despite the explicit intention of honor The thing I keep thinking about, in regards to this subject, is there seems an implicit backhandedness even in the case of honor. It could be argued we do the same with animals, take the image of the powerful thing that could kill us, and totemize it. However, the two things implicit here are that we respect it because we fear it and, conversely, we honor it after we have beaten it (and perhaps especially because we have beaten it); we honor the spirit of the wolf by dancing around a fire with the hide of one turned into a headdress.

cherrycherry98 5y ago
Is this not reading too much into it? How many sports teams in the US use Vikings, Spartans, or Trojans as mascots? To my knowledge "we" (whoever that is supposed to mean) never defeated these people. They are generally associated by the public as having been fierce warriors.
- apocalypstyx 5y ago
  I state "we" because I think it could be argued to be a generic human practice overall, to one degree or another (wearing a wolfskin as described could be as easily attributed to any culture present where wolfs have existed, whether in regards to American or European history.) In regards to Vikings and Spartans, etc, I would say there is appropriation here nonetheless, the appropriation of legacy. The whole notion of "Western thought" is an appropriated amalgam: we are not Greek (and many Anglo European cultures have reject the notion of Grecians being "white" to varying degrees, but we still use "deep time" to anchor ourselves, justify ourselves. In this way, we don't have to justify that we are "creating something new." Christianity may be the best case in point: it anchors itself to the ancientness of the Torah, yet contradicts its history at will, but this doesn't matter, the anchor remains. The two can coexist. We can claim others' past glories as our own, and celebrate "our" own. (And in the cultural sense the conquering of the Americas is something that is celebrated, the overcoming of the "Indian as Other to the American self," as I once heard it put.
- mewse-hn 5y ago
  Your three examples are historical civilizations rather than current, living indigenous tribes. I keep thinking of the "Washington Caucasians" parody shirt when this discussion comes up.
- nautilius 5y ago
  Do you think the Spartans would feel honored if some 3rd class high-school competitive walking club in Whatchamacallit, IL labels itself 'The Whatchamacallit Spartans'?

carabiner 5y ago

This doesn't seem to relate to the article's content. FWIW, native tribes of the US have long honored their images as symbols of strength and as warriors, which is why the US military continues to name helicopters after them: https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/the-reason-army-helicopters-are-named-after-native-tribes-will-make-you-smile/ https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/the-reason-arm...

anyonecancode 5y ago

I think you're right that pretty much any approach to Native Americans by non-Native Americans is going to end up being problematic -- but is that really so surprising, given the immensity of what happened? How to even begin making amends for a multi-century campaign that literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations off the face of the earth? Massive reparations maybe? Massive land reform? If we're not talking about actions at that scale, then isn't any monument, memorial, or other form of honor little more than a sop and, arguably, more about assuaging the feelings of non-Natives?

ryandrake 5y ago
> How to even begin making amends for a multi-century campaign that literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations off the face of the earth? Massive reparations maybe? Massive land reform? This is the right question. What is an effective process for the descendants of oppressors and the descendants of the oppressed make amends and move past it? If we can't answer this, our descendants will be quarreling about it forever. 1000 years from now, someone's going to say "Well my Native American great, great, great X 40 grandfather was oppressed by your white great, great, great X 40 grandfather, therefore blah blah blah." It might never end. There are feuds today that go back 1000 years. It's kind of ridiculous. How do you solve it?
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  This makes it seem like the injustices are all ancient, when this story is an example of non-Indians profiting off the continued misery of Indians. Both government and private oppression is still common, the first act should be resolving as much of that as possible.
cuakknife 5y ago
>literally erased a continent's worth of civilizations You're thinking about the USA. Other native american cultures in America (the continent) faced different degrees of destruction, but I wouldn't say "literally erased" them.

nextaccountic 5y ago

I think you are misrepresenting the reasons people might object. From Wikipedia I gather 4 main reasons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse_Memorial#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse_Memorial#Controver... (1) > Crazy Horse resisted being photographed and was deliberately buried where his grave would not be found. Ziolkowski envisioned the monument as a metaphoric tribute to the spirit of Crazy Horse and Native Americans. He reportedly said, "My lands are where my dead lie buried." His extended hand on the monument is to symbolize that statement.[18] .. (2) > Elaine Quiver, a descendant of one of Crazy Horse's aunts,[24] said in 2003 that the elder Standing Bear should not have independently petitioned Ziolkowski to create the memorial, because Lakota culture dictates consensus from family members for such a decision, which was not obtained before the first rock was dynamited in 1948.[25] She said: > > They don't respect our culture because we didn't give permission for someone to carve the sacred Black Hills where our burial grounds are. They were there for us to enjoy and they were there for us to pray. But it wasn't meant to be carved into images, which is very wrong for all of us. The more I think about it, the more it's a desecration of our Indian culture. Not just Crazy Horse, but all of us.[25] .. (3) > Seth Big Crow, whose great-grandmother was an aunt of Crazy Horse's, said he wondered about the millions of dollars which the Ziolkowski family had collected from the visitor center and shops associated with the memorial, and "the amount of money being generated by his ancestor's name". He said: > > Or did it give them free hand to try to take over the name and make money off it as long as they're alive and we're alive? When you start making money rather than to try to complete the project, that's when, to me, it's going off in the wrong direction.[25] .. (4) > Other traditional Lakota oppose the memorial. In his 1972 autobiography, John Fire Lame Deer, a Lakota medicine man, said: "The whole idea of making a beautiful wild mountain into a statue of him is a pollution of the landscape. It is against the spirit of Crazy Horse."[26] In a 2001 interview, Lakota activist Russell Means said: "Imagine going to the holy land in Israel, whether you're a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, and start carving up the mountain of Zion. It's an insult to our entire being. It's bad enough getting four white faces carved in up there, the shrine of hypocrisy."[27] In his 2019 New Yorker article, ‘Who Speaks for Crazy Horse?’, author Brooke Jarvis states: “On Pine Ridge and in Rapid City, I heard a number of Lakota say that the memorial has become a tribute not to Crazy Horse but to Ziolkowski and his family”.[28] -- First, he deliberately sought to not have a place of honor for himself. Building one is incredibly disrespectful. Second, his family wasn't consulted. That was too disrespectful. Third, the builder is making bank on indigenous history. Fourth, and crucially, this is a complete pollution of the landscape done essentially for vanity. This is maddening. Note that those four reasons have absolutely nothing to do with any other Native American statue ever. Though I would agree that the representation of Native Americans done by non-native Americans can often be disrespectful (for specific reasons and not because it's a problem in itself)

nautilius 5y ago

These are human beings, and deserve to be treated with respect. Misusing them as a patronizing token of whatever it is you think is disrespectful. It's the same thing as 'Asians are good at math', 'Irish are drunk', 'Germans are Nazis - but well organized'. Leave them be. Of course it gets more complicated by their history in the U.S. Imagine Germany erecting a statue of a cartoon Jew, with big nose and everything, in front of some stock exchange. "But they're good with money!".

nautilius 5y ago

It's pretty simple, they're humans, not mascots. Do you think Comanches felt honored that eplanit in their summer camp won the hot-dog eating contest 'for' the Comanches? Do you think a single Native will bat an eye if eplanit no longer wears an 'Apaches are strong' T-Shirt? You want to honor the Natives? Do something that helps them legislatively, e.g. change the boundary conditions that would allow for houses to be bought and generational wealth be accumulated in Reservations. And frankly, what people want their mascots to be is hardly the imperative here. It stops at the point when they choose real life human beings without consent and likely against their will. I don't understand what's so complicated about it.

adamrezich 5y ago
> You want to honor the Natives? Do something that helps them legislatively, e.g. change the boundary conditions that would allow for houses to be bought and generational wealth be accumulated in Reservations. at least here in South Dakota, the problems with the reservations are not of the legislative variety
- BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
  ... but they are?