8 ms·

Pavel Durov listed in leaked Pegasus project data

155 points by elies 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
underseacables 5y ago
I’m bothered by this Pegasus thing, does anyone have a link to the raw data? I don’t like getting an interpretation of something through the news media anymore. Rather, I don’t trust the news media to provide an accurate or even an honest analysis, and from what I can tell the Pegasus data as it’s called, seems to be something that only the media has access to.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  Isn’t the raw data just a list of phone numbers? What would you do with that without further compromising the privacy of the people behind them?
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  There are security and privacy reasons not to publicly dump leaks like this, and the distrust of the media should be somewhat offset by multiple outlets analyzing the data separately. That said, I'm unsure how the media could twist "x country spied on y individual." Knowing the types of people being spied on, it should be assumed most people of similar importance are being spied on by someone.
  - underseacables 5y ago
    I take your point, but what echoes in my mind is when the Hillary emails were leaked, and people like van Jones were saying no you’re not allowed to look at that, but we the media, we are allowed to look at that. They could redact information, but I lament that my trust in the media is so low that I cannot fully trust it without seeing the raw data myself. Even having that raw data available would give me more confidence in the reporting.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      If you had access to the data, how would you verify that Durov's number was listed? Then what confidence would that give you? Trusting an anonymous leak more than the media who vetted the data seems misguided.
    - kjaftaedi 5y ago
      What are you going to do with the phone numbers of 50,000 important individuals? What sort of cost-benefit analysis are you doing that makes you think your right to see other people's PII trumps their privacy?
- igorzx31 5y ago
  The indications are on github if you want to check your phone.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    https://github.com/AmnestyTech/investigations/tree/master/2021-07-18_nso https://github.com/AmnestyTech/investigations/tree/master/20...
shekhirin 5y ago
Durov's post from his Telegram channel (https://t.me/durov https://t.me/durov): The phones of 50,000 individuals, including human rights activists and journalists, have been targeted by surveillance tools that were used by numerous governments. These tools can hack any iOS and Android phone, and there is no way to protect your device from it. It doesn't matter which apps you use, because the system is breached on a deeper level. According to the Snowden revelations from 2013, both Apple and Google are part of the global surveillance program that implies that these companies have to, among other things, implement backdoors into their mobile operating systems. These backdoors, usually disguised as security bugs, allow US agencies to access information on any smartphone in the world. The problem with such backdoors is that they are never exclusive to just one party. Anybody can exploit them. So if a US security agency can hack an iOS or Android phone, any other organization that uncovers the backdoors can do the same. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly what has been taking place: an Israeli company called NSO Group has been selling access to the spying tools that allowed third parties to hack tens of thousands of phones. Since at least 2018, I have been aware that one of my phone numbers was included in a list of potential targets of such surveillance tools (although a source from the NSO Group denies it). Personally, I wasn't worried: since 2011, when I was still living in Russia, I’ve got used to assuming that all my phones were compromised. Anyone who gains access to my private data will be utterly disappointed – they will have to go through thousands of concept designs for Telegram features and millions of messages related to our product development process. They won't find any important information there. However, these surveillance tools are also used against people far more prominent than me. For example, they were employed to spy on 14 heads of state. The existence of backdoors in crucial infrastructure and software creates a huge challenge for humanity. That's why I have been calling upon the governments of the world to start acting against the Apple-Google duopoly in the smartphone market and to force them to open their closed ecosystems and allow for more competition. So far, even though the current market monopolization increases costs and impedes privacy and freedom of speech of billions, government officials have been very slow to act. I hope the news that they themselves have been targeted by these surveillance tools will prompt politicians to change their minds.
- djanogo 5y ago
  He pivoted the NSO group targeting to Apple-Google discussion, with out any proof that Apple had anything to do with Pegasus. He wants biggest American companies that world has ever had to open source and loose all the edge against rest of the world, but he runs close source proprietary server software which he wants people to use for secure communication.
lootsauce 5y ago
Pretty tired of seeing people surprised and concerned when they get a look at how the sausage is made like this. Bill Binney in 2002 and Edward Snowden in 2013 should have disabused us all of any pretense of order and justice in this system. World governments, Big Tech be like: "We are shocked, shocked! to find back doors and spying in here!" The two work in tandem to facilitate the needs of each other. This is just the new military industrial complex for an age of hybrid war. Not going away any time soon, no matter how we feel about it. As pointed out in another post today "A key product of ubiquitous surveillance is people who are comfortable with it" [1] All of the revelations with no recourse or reform lead to what we have now, everyone assumes big brother is watching and thats just how big brother wants it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904820
- shoto_io 5y ago
  Yes. People don't know and most don't care. For example, the EU parliament has just recently passed legislation to allow "providers of e-mail and messaging services to automatically search all personal messages of each citizen for presumed suspect content and report suspected cases to the police." Most people I talk to don't know about this. When they hear it, they're in shock. And then go on living their lives. It's really very intangible to most people. Source: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chatcontrol-european-parliament-approves-mass-surveillance-of-private-communications/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chatcontrol-european-parlia...
  - sildur 5y ago
    People don't caring about surveillance is more sinister than it looks. Because most people don't care, the ones who do (out of necessity or choice) stick out like a sore thumb. "This citizen here, he shows in the cameras, but doesn't appear to have a cellphone/has two cellphones, let's investigate him!"
    - shoto_io 5y ago
      True… Cause: nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right?
neolog 5y ago
Is there any reason to think this list of numbers is actually related to NSO, rather than some other group?
stereoradonc 5y ago
Always check for the threat model. I am too insignificant for any government to track. I pay my taxes on time and have nothing to hide. However, I don't see the argument shifting towards the big tech- they are responsible for giving us the crap operating systems. I genuinely miss BlackBerry 10 now.

155 points by elies 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

I’m bothered by this Pegasus thing, does anyone have a link to the raw data? I don’t like getting an interpretation of something through the news media anymore. Rather, I don’t trust the news media to provide an accurate or even an honest analysis, and from what I can tell the Pegasus data as it’s called, seems to be something that only the media has access to.

TechBro8615 5y ago
Isn’t the raw data just a list of phone numbers? What would you do with that without further compromising the privacy of the people behind them?
boomboomsubban 5y ago
There are security and privacy reasons not to publicly dump leaks like this, and the distrust of the media should be somewhat offset by multiple outlets analyzing the data separately. That said, I'm unsure how the media could twist "x country spied on y individual." Knowing the types of people being spied on, it should be assumed most people of similar importance are being spied on by someone.
- underseacables 5y ago
  I take your point, but what echoes in my mind is when the Hillary emails were leaked, and people like van Jones were saying no you’re not allowed to look at that, but we the media, we are allowed to look at that. They could redact information, but I lament that my trust in the media is so low that I cannot fully trust it without seeing the raw data myself. Even having that raw data available would give me more confidence in the reporting.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    If you had access to the data, how would you verify that Durov's number was listed? Then what confidence would that give you? Trusting an anonymous leak more than the media who vetted the data seems misguided.
  - kjaftaedi 5y ago
    What are you going to do with the phone numbers of 50,000 important individuals? What sort of cost-benefit analysis are you doing that makes you think your right to see other people's PII trumps their privacy?
igorzx31 5y ago
The indications are on github if you want to check your phone.
- klyrs 5y ago
  https://github.com/AmnestyTech/investigations/tree/master/2021-07-18_nso https://github.com/AmnestyTech/investigations/tree/master/20...

shekhirin 5y ago

Durov's post from his Telegram channel (https://t.me/durov https://t.me/durov): The phones of 50,000 individuals, including human rights activists and journalists, have been targeted by surveillance tools that were used by numerous governments. These tools can hack any iOS and Android phone, and there is no way to protect your device from it. It doesn't matter which apps you use, because the system is breached on a deeper level. According to the Snowden revelations from 2013, both Apple and Google are part of the global surveillance program that implies that these companies have to, among other things, implement backdoors into their mobile operating systems. These backdoors, usually disguised as security bugs, allow US agencies to access information on any smartphone in the world. The problem with such backdoors is that they are never exclusive to just one party. Anybody can exploit them. So if a US security agency can hack an iOS or Android phone, any other organization that uncovers the backdoors can do the same. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly what has been taking place: an Israeli company called NSO Group has been selling access to the spying tools that allowed third parties to hack tens of thousands of phones. Since at least 2018, I have been aware that one of my phone numbers was included in a list of potential targets of such surveillance tools (although a source from the NSO Group denies it). Personally, I wasn't worried: since 2011, when I was still living in Russia, I’ve got used to assuming that all my phones were compromised. Anyone who gains access to my private data will be utterly disappointed – they will have to go through thousands of concept designs for Telegram features and millions of messages related to our product development process. They won't find any important information there. However, these surveillance tools are also used against people far more prominent than me. For example, they were employed to spy on 14 heads of state. The existence of backdoors in crucial infrastructure and software creates a huge challenge for humanity. That's why I have been calling upon the governments of the world to start acting against the Apple-Google duopoly in the smartphone market and to force them to open their closed ecosystems and allow for more competition. So far, even though the current market monopolization increases costs and impedes privacy and freedom of speech of billions, government officials have been very slow to act. I hope the news that they themselves have been targeted by these surveillance tools will prompt politicians to change their minds.

djanogo 5y ago
He pivoted the NSO group targeting to Apple-Google discussion, with out any proof that Apple had anything to do with Pegasus. He wants biggest American companies that world has ever had to open source and loose all the edge against rest of the world, but he runs close source proprietary server software which he wants people to use for secure communication.

lootsauce 5y ago

Pretty tired of seeing people surprised and concerned when they get a look at how the sausage is made like this. Bill Binney in 2002 and Edward Snowden in 2013 should have disabused us all of any pretense of order and justice in this system. World governments, Big Tech be like: "We are shocked, shocked! to find back doors and spying in here!" The two work in tandem to facilitate the needs of each other. This is just the new military industrial complex for an age of hybrid war. Not going away any time soon, no matter how we feel about it. As pointed out in another post today "A key product of ubiquitous surveillance is people who are comfortable with it" [1] All of the revelations with no recourse or reform lead to what we have now, everyone assumes big brother is watching and thats just how big brother wants it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904820

shoto_io 5y ago
Yes. People don't know and most don't care. For example, the EU parliament has just recently passed legislation to allow "providers of e-mail and messaging services to automatically search all personal messages of each citizen for presumed suspect content and report suspected cases to the police." Most people I talk to don't know about this. When they hear it, they're in shock. And then go on living their lives. It's really very intangible to most people. Source: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chatcontrol-european-parliament-approves-mass-surveillance-of-private-communications/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chatcontrol-european-parlia...
- sildur 5y ago
  People don't caring about surveillance is more sinister than it looks. Because most people don't care, the ones who do (out of necessity or choice) stick out like a sore thumb. "This citizen here, he shows in the cameras, but doesn't appear to have a cellphone/has two cellphones, let's investigate him!"
  - shoto_io 5y ago
    True… Cause: nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right?

neolog 5y ago

Is there any reason to think this list of numbers is actually related to NSO, rather than some other group?

stereoradonc 5y ago

Always check for the threat model. I am too insignificant for any government to track. I pay my taxes on time and have nothing to hide. However, I don't see the argument shifting towards the big tech- they are responsible for giving us the crap operating systems. I genuinely miss BlackBerry 10 now.