4 ms·

And vegetables and fruits? Well, practically all of the mass produced ones never EVER saw any soil or real sunlight but artificial gel to grow on Wait, what? Y

by trotsky 15y ago

And vegetables and fruits? Well, practically all of the mass produced ones never EVER saw any soil or real sunlight but artificial gel to grow on Wait, what? You are going off the deep end here. I assure you that the exact opposite is true - practically all mass produced produce touches soil and uses real sunlight. The economics don't support your premise at all. Have you never been to rural areas? I assure you they are not lined with industrial warehouses and artificial lighting systems. And if you go organic and local farmers only? Apart from few choices, you have even less inspections and regulations to protect your safety because you don't know what they are selling, what it grew on and how clean and safe to eat it is. And some of it just taste absolutely horrible. At some level you need to take on a certain amount of responsibility. My locally grown produce mostly comes from people I know. They don't need a ton of regulations and inspections to keep me safe - social contracts do. We've been doing it this way for thousands of years. The regulations and inspections mostly became needed when you got so far removed from your food source. Also life isn't 100.00% safe, c'est la vie.

Tichy 15y ago
"Have you never been to rural areas? I assure you they are not lined with industrial warehouses and artificial lighting systems." You are aware that Farmville != rural areas in the real world? There are movies and books depicting the industrial rising of cattle (for example "Eating Animals" does a nice, graphics job). You can spot the "pink lakes" which result from the waste output of industrial pig farming on Google Maps. But these are indeed not the areas you would visit on a weekend trip to the countryside, because these areas reek for miles. Just because some chickens still roam outside, doesn't prove that the majority of them does. The article about pig farming was on HN years ago, but I can't find it atm. But Google provides a lot of info "factory farming".
- rwolf 15y ago
  The things you are saying are true about livestock. The commenters above are talking about fruits and vegetables specifically. It makes sense to me that a dirt patch and sunlight out in Ohio are cheaper than setting up hydroponics plants.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Missed that, sorry :-(
- kahawe 15y ago
  This might apply more here in Europe than in the USA, considering you have such an abundance of land available. But our cheaper vegetables are notoriously grown in glasshouses in the Netherlands and Spain over here and they do not touch any real soil; and it is ultimately cheaper and allows for better use of the space since they can grow on several levels and harvesting is much easier than having to dig something in and later out in the field. The worse part still remains: chemicals, pesticides and lots and lots of genetically altered vegetables and fruits. You cannot even use their seeds to grow new ones; you have to buy seeds from e.g. Monsanto each year along with all the chemicals you need to grow that stuff. You have to watch "We Feed the World"!
kahawe 15y ago
Well, even with local farmers you do not escape the mass food production industry, really. AFAIK there are hardly any farmers left who do NOT grow their vegetables and fruits with actual, natural seeds but rely on those genetically modified super-seeds from Monsanto and other companies. These do not bear usable seeds, you cannot plant them in the next year. Plus they need all sorts of chemicals and pesticides to grow, still. > We've been doing it this way for thousands of years And for the bigger part of those thousands of years, on average we barely made it to the age of 30, let alone 40. It is good if you can trust local folk but it is better to have professional inspections because there is a lot that can still go wrong in farming and your local farmers might just miss or not know about something crucial. Or maybe I am just used too much to the German way of things already.... inspections and checks for everything.
- trotsky 15y ago
  Just to give you a picture, I get most of my vegetables from a Community Supported Agriculture farm here in the spring and summer. They give me a box of what is available. Onions, peppers, beets, potatoes, cucumbers, fennel, tomatoes, garlic and cilantro have been some of the recent arrivals. Spring had lots of lettuces and spinach, in the future there will be squash. Some are local heirlooms, they certainly aren't from gene hack labs. The jalapenos growing in my garden came from Amish farm stocks in the next county. The pork chops and sausage in my freezer grew up a few miles away. With all that said, I could be at the white house for a state dinner in an hour if they ever asked me. I don't know how possible it is to manage a large global society this way, but it works OK at a micro level. http://www.localharvest.org/csa/ http://www.localharvest.org/csa/
  - kahawe 15y ago
    Wow, this is pretty sweet - especially the part where they are still using real seeds! I doubt the majority of farmers are doing this here.
    - trotsky 15y ago
      showing that there is a demand by going out of your way to track down and buy what you want helps it happen.

by trotsky 15y ago

Tichy 15y ago

"Have you never been to rural areas? I assure you they are not lined with industrial warehouses and artificial lighting systems." You are aware that Farmville != rural areas in the real world? There are movies and books depicting the industrial rising of cattle (for example "Eating Animals" does a nice, graphics job). You can spot the "pink lakes" which result from the waste output of industrial pig farming on Google Maps. But these are indeed not the areas you would visit on a weekend trip to the countryside, because these areas reek for miles. Just because some chickens still roam outside, doesn't prove that the majority of them does. The article about pig farming was on HN years ago, but I can't find it atm. But Google provides a lot of info "factory farming".

rwolf 15y ago
The things you are saying are true about livestock. The commenters above are talking about fruits and vegetables specifically. It makes sense to me that a dirt patch and sunlight out in Ohio are cheaper than setting up hydroponics plants.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Missed that, sorry :-(
kahawe 15y ago
This might apply more here in Europe than in the USA, considering you have such an abundance of land available. But our cheaper vegetables are notoriously grown in glasshouses in the Netherlands and Spain over here and they do not touch any real soil; and it is ultimately cheaper and allows for better use of the space since they can grow on several levels and harvesting is much easier than having to dig something in and later out in the field. The worse part still remains: chemicals, pesticides and lots and lots of genetically altered vegetables and fruits. You cannot even use their seeds to grow new ones; you have to buy seeds from e.g. Monsanto each year along with all the chemicals you need to grow that stuff. You have to watch "We Feed the World"!

kahawe 15y ago

Well, even with local farmers you do not escape the mass food production industry, really. AFAIK there are hardly any farmers left who do NOT grow their vegetables and fruits with actual, natural seeds but rely on those genetically modified super-seeds from Monsanto and other companies. These do not bear usable seeds, you cannot plant them in the next year. Plus they need all sorts of chemicals and pesticides to grow, still. > We've been doing it this way for thousands of years And for the bigger part of those thousands of years, on average we barely made it to the age of 30, let alone 40. It is good if you can trust local folk but it is better to have professional inspections because there is a lot that can still go wrong in farming and your local farmers might just miss or not know about something crucial. Or maybe I am just used too much to the German way of things already.... inspections and checks for everything.

trotsky 15y ago
Just to give you a picture, I get most of my vegetables from a Community Supported Agriculture farm here in the spring and summer. They give me a box of what is available. Onions, peppers, beets, potatoes, cucumbers, fennel, tomatoes, garlic and cilantro have been some of the recent arrivals. Spring had lots of lettuces and spinach, in the future there will be squash. Some are local heirlooms, they certainly aren't from gene hack labs. The jalapenos growing in my garden came from Amish farm stocks in the next county. The pork chops and sausage in my freezer grew up a few miles away. With all that said, I could be at the white house for a state dinner in an hour if they ever asked me. I don't know how possible it is to manage a large global society this way, but it works OK at a micro level. http://www.localharvest.org/csa/ http://www.localharvest.org/csa/
- kahawe 15y ago
  Wow, this is pretty sweet - especially the part where they are still using real seeds! I doubt the majority of farmers are doing this here.
  - trotsky 15y ago
    showing that there is a demand by going out of your way to track down and buy what you want helps it happen.