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> Now the real question? I’m not sure I know what we can do, actionably. Call Congress and ask them to care? I maintain that NSO is just a deniability front fo

> Now the real question? I’m not sure I know what we can do, actionably. Call Congress and ask them to care? I maintain that NSO is just a deniability front for Israel's espionage agencies, otherwise I don't know how they weren't shut down for so long, knowing what kind of a state Israel is. NSO is well known to the Israeli state, after all it is their cabinet that clears every deal NSO make. Per Israeli laws, pegasus is a "weapon" So yes, the problem is primarilly in political dimension.

aritmo 5y ago
That looks reasonable. The NSO Group malware perform active attacks. By creating this front (the NSO Group) that is supposed to have private customers, they can put in their own targets and have some form of deniability.
maltalex 5y ago
Would you have said the same about HackingTeam [0] and the Italian Government? They were featured on citizen lab a LOT a few of years ago [1]. These guys still operate under the name "Memento Labs". There's obviously money to be made from selling offensive cybersecurity tools to governments. And you can hardly blame governments for buying these services in the age of end-to-end encryption in the hands of every criminal and terrorist. While I definitely don't condone spying on human rights activists, journalists, or even regular citizens for that matter, pegasus really is a weapon and as such should definitely be heavily regulated. But as with other types of weapons, the responsibility for its use (or rather misuse) should lie with the weapon's user first and foremost, not the manufacturer. If NSO/HackingTeam were in the business of selling physical weapons to foreign governments, would they have been responsible for a government killing journalists with said weapons? If they were selling to North Korea, sure. But what about the legitimate governments of stable countries not under sanctions? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team [1]: https://citizenlab.ca/tag/hacking-team/ https://citizenlab.ca/tag/hacking-team/
- maybeOneDay 5y ago
  I think you hand wave away the responsibility born by the Governments who regulate, control, and subsidise the arms trade. Of course it is the fault of the user of the weapons as well - but UK and USA (to just name a couple more egregious examples) governments quite literally give money to foreign governments in order for them to funnel it directly back into arms deals. These weapons can then be used to destroy hospitals and schools in Yemen. Our governments are financing this loss of life in order to further propel the revolving door. I see this kind of cyber weaponry as a simple subset of the above complex.
  - maltalex 5y ago
    > I see this kind of cyber weaponry as a simple subset of the above complex. This is exactly my point. I think that NSO should be just as responsible for the outcomes as any other arms manufacturer. And I'm not waving away the government's responsibilities. Just the opposite - cyber weaponry is equivalent to other types of weaponry and should be treated as such. This is why I feel that the discussion around NSO itself misses the point. It's like discussing Colt's responsibility whenever a government uses an M-16 to shoot a human rights activists. Colt may be responsible in some cases, but the important question is who bought the weapon and why did they use them against that specific target. Also, should the buyer be sanctioned and forbidden from purchasing such weapons in the future.
    - srean 5y ago
      I agree with your larger claim but possibly differ in how to oppose these forces. Opposition in the abstract does nothing, apart from stoking ivory tower feel good emotions. Going after one perpetrator, building a precedence, seems to have had more lasting effect than going for the abstract.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  > If NSO/HackingTeam were in the business of selling physical weapons to foreign governments, would they have been responsible for a government killing journalists with said weapons? Yes.
mmrezaie 5y ago
I agree with these statements. Although I do not understand why this is not making any nosie internationally? NSO (ergo the supporting state) seems to be stealing data from EU leaders as well. Is this mean we have many NSO like companies out there that we do not know about and each country has one and everyone knows about these? Does anyone know what is the Swedish NSO?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  No evidence of that yet. Their numbers were in the list, but hasn't been confirmed yet whether Pegasus was installed.
srean 5y ago
A very believable hypothesis. NSO is also not the only one of this kind, Candiru is another.
signal11 5y ago
“Deniability front” might be a bit harsh, but revolving doors between government and private sector exist all over the world. Ignoring NSO for a moment, in general they are not always malicious. But with regards to NSO in particular, there definitely is some linkage, even if it’s not necessarily malicious. According to this Bloomberg columnist[1], (linked article has further hyperlinks to sources) > How much of this technology is being developed in the U.S., including by U.S. government agencies, and making its way to illiberal autocrats? NSO’s founders are, according to multiple reports, thought to be alumni of Israel’s signals intelligence division, Unit 8200. And we know — including through the Edward Snowden leak — that the U.S. National Security Agency provides Israeli intelligence “controlled access to advanced U.S. technology and equipment.” [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-19/pegasus-spyware-scandal-should-prompt-new-u-s-controls https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-19/pegasu...
- markdown 5y ago
  > but revolving doors between government and private sector exist all over the world. No... no they don't. It's not normal at all.
  - ComodoHacker 5y ago
    What do you mean? Should you be denied a job in the government after working in the private sector and vice versa?
    - markdown 5y ago
      In most countries, you simply wouldn't qualify for a job in government if you've spent a career working in the private sector. Civil servants are... civil servants.
      - ComodoHacker 5y ago
        Never heard about it. Can you name a few? What a waste of human resources!

aritmo 5y ago

That looks reasonable. The NSO Group malware perform active attacks. By creating this front (the NSO Group) that is supposed to have private customers, they can put in their own targets and have some form of deniability.

maltalex 5y ago

Would you have said the same about HackingTeam [0] and the Italian Government? They were featured on citizen lab a LOT a few of years ago [1]. These guys still operate under the name "Memento Labs". There's obviously money to be made from selling offensive cybersecurity tools to governments. And you can hardly blame governments for buying these services in the age of end-to-end encryption in the hands of every criminal and terrorist. While I definitely don't condone spying on human rights activists, journalists, or even regular citizens for that matter, pegasus really is a weapon and as such should definitely be heavily regulated. But as with other types of weapons, the responsibility for its use (or rather misuse) should lie with the weapon's user first and foremost, not the manufacturer. If NSO/HackingTeam were in the business of selling physical weapons to foreign governments, would they have been responsible for a government killing journalists with said weapons? If they were selling to North Korea, sure. But what about the legitimate governments of stable countries not under sanctions? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team [1]: https://citizenlab.ca/tag/hacking-team/ https://citizenlab.ca/tag/hacking-team/

maybeOneDay 5y ago
I think you hand wave away the responsibility born by the Governments who regulate, control, and subsidise the arms trade. Of course it is the fault of the user of the weapons as well - but UK and USA (to just name a couple more egregious examples) governments quite literally give money to foreign governments in order for them to funnel it directly back into arms deals. These weapons can then be used to destroy hospitals and schools in Yemen. Our governments are financing this loss of life in order to further propel the revolving door. I see this kind of cyber weaponry as a simple subset of the above complex.
- maltalex 5y ago
  > I see this kind of cyber weaponry as a simple subset of the above complex. This is exactly my point. I think that NSO should be just as responsible for the outcomes as any other arms manufacturer. And I'm not waving away the government's responsibilities. Just the opposite - cyber weaponry is equivalent to other types of weaponry and should be treated as such. This is why I feel that the discussion around NSO itself misses the point. It's like discussing Colt's responsibility whenever a government uses an M-16 to shoot a human rights activists. Colt may be responsible in some cases, but the important question is who bought the weapon and why did they use them against that specific target. Also, should the buyer be sanctioned and forbidden from purchasing such weapons in the future.
  - srean 5y ago
    I agree with your larger claim but possibly differ in how to oppose these forces. Opposition in the abstract does nothing, apart from stoking ivory tower feel good emotions. Going after one perpetrator, building a precedence, seems to have had more lasting effect than going for the abstract.
user-the-name 5y ago
> If NSO/HackingTeam were in the business of selling physical weapons to foreign governments, would they have been responsible for a government killing journalists with said weapons? Yes.

mmrezaie 5y ago

I agree with these statements. Although I do not understand why this is not making any nosie internationally? NSO (ergo the supporting state) seems to be stealing data from EU leaders as well. Is this mean we have many NSO like companies out there that we do not know about and each country has one and everyone knows about these? Does anyone know what is the Swedish NSO?

fighterpilot 5y ago
No evidence of that yet. Their numbers were in the list, but hasn't been confirmed yet whether Pegasus was installed.

srean 5y ago

A very believable hypothesis. NSO is also not the only one of this kind, Candiru is another.

signal11 5y ago

“Deniability front” might be a bit harsh, but revolving doors between government and private sector exist all over the world. Ignoring NSO for a moment, in general they are not always malicious. But with regards to NSO in particular, there definitely is some linkage, even if it’s not necessarily malicious. According to this Bloomberg columnist[1], (linked article has further hyperlinks to sources) > How much of this technology is being developed in the U.S., including by U.S. government agencies, and making its way to illiberal autocrats? NSO’s founders are, according to multiple reports, thought to be alumni of Israel’s signals intelligence division, Unit 8200. And we know — including through the Edward Snowden leak — that the U.S. National Security Agency provides Israeli intelligence “controlled access to advanced U.S. technology and equipment.” [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-19/pegasus-spyware-scandal-should-prompt-new-u-s-controls https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-19/pegasu...

markdown 5y ago
> but revolving doors between government and private sector exist all over the world. No... no they don't. It's not normal at all.
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  What do you mean? Should you be denied a job in the government after working in the private sector and vice versa?
  - markdown 5y ago
    In most countries, you simply wouldn't qualify for a job in government if you've spent a career working in the private sector. Civil servants are... civil servants.
    - ComodoHacker 5y ago
      Never heard about it. Can you name a few? What a waste of human resources!