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> America does not have significantly more homicides then other western countries. The US has 2-5x the murder rate of peer nations. US 4.96/100k Canada 1.76

> America does not have significantly more homicides then other western countries. The US has 2-5x the murder rate of peer nations. US 4.96/100k Canada 1.76 UK 1.20 Germany 0.95 Japan 0.26 Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intenti...

VBprogrammer 5y ago
The usual argument is that if you exclude gang violence then the number is way lower. However, if you arbitrarily throw away the number one cause of violence in other countries, surprisingly enough, their numbers are also way lower.
- watwut 5y ago
  The murder may count as gang violence whenever one of person is associated with gang - even if actual event happened due to jealousy or other crap. And being associated with gang can be also just due to who you know. The point is, gang violence as aggregate is not meaningfully different from other violence.
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    Where the violence takes place in public, the relationship between the perpetrators and victims, the fact that both parties are usually armed, that bystanders are often caught in crossfire, the motives for the violence being beefs over territory, and the minimal events required to trigger the violence. Except for those and more, it's just like any other violence.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > gang violence as aggregate is not meaningfully different from other violence This is just false. The reason gang violence is separated out is that gang violence is perpetrated against other gang members. I.e. the gun violence rate for non-gang members is dramatically lower. It doesn’t mean gang violence is not a problem. It does mean that unless you are in a gang, the US doesn’t have a high murder rate.
    - VBprogrammer 5y ago
      I'm sure for young men growing up in certain neighborhoods, opting out of gang membership is less straight forward than you make it sound.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > is less straight forward than you make it sound. Where do you think I comment on the ease of opting out of gangs?
- scotth 5y ago
  Why exclude gang violence? The US has armed gangs.
  - detaro 5y ago
    I think the argument is usually in the context of "it's mostly people involved with gangs, it doesn't change much for the murder risk for a 'normal citizen'"
m_mueller 5y ago
Think about this number 5 for a moment. Using a simplistic statistical model it means that you have a ~0.4% risk of getting murdered by a gun over a 80 year lifetime. That's not far off of COVID as an unvaccinated individual. Now compare how people react about that news...
- spinach 5y ago
  There are many terrible consequences for health from COVID besides dying.
- iso1631 5y ago
  2018 US murders: 15,000 Covid deaths in last 15 months: 625,000 (500k/year) So 30 times more likely to be killed by covid than by murder.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    Not if you are below about 70 years old. Most people who die in covid are old. I'd think most people who get shot, are younger
    - oarsinsync 5y ago
      > Not if you are below about 70 years old. As another commentor noted: > However, if you arbitrarily throw away the number one cause of violence in other countries, surprisingly enough, their numbers are also way lower.
      - cutemonster 5y ago
        I replied to "So 30 times more likely" -- but it's not, it's either a lot higher, or a lot lower. Fall accidents are also dangerous once you're old, doesn't mean it makes sense to compare that with gun violence or swatting
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    Vehicle deaths (2019): 37,595.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
We also have a much higher per-capita rate of incarceration regardless. Perhaps it isn't that we have a lot more murders because of guns, but because we're a culture that likes to solve problems with violence following our government's example.
LevGoldstein 5y ago
The US also has considerably higher wealth inequality than the other countries you've listed, and hence higher motivation for violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in... That said, I wouldn't consider those countries directly comparable as far as their position in the world, and how their culture is affected by that position. Russia is probably it's most direct peer, and is comparably closer when looking at wealth inequality and homicide rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

VBprogrammer 5y ago

The usual argument is that if you exclude gang violence then the number is way lower. However, if you arbitrarily throw away the number one cause of violence in other countries, surprisingly enough, their numbers are also way lower.

watwut 5y ago
The murder may count as gang violence whenever one of person is associated with gang - even if actual event happened due to jealousy or other crap. And being associated with gang can be also just due to who you know. The point is, gang violence as aggregate is not meaningfully different from other violence.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Where the violence takes place in public, the relationship between the perpetrators and victims, the fact that both parties are usually armed, that bystanders are often caught in crossfire, the motives for the violence being beefs over territory, and the minimal events required to trigger the violence. Except for those and more, it's just like any other violence.
- zepto 5y ago
  > gang violence as aggregate is not meaningfully different from other violence This is just false. The reason gang violence is separated out is that gang violence is perpetrated against other gang members. I.e. the gun violence rate for non-gang members is dramatically lower. It doesn’t mean gang violence is not a problem. It does mean that unless you are in a gang, the US doesn’t have a high murder rate.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    I'm sure for young men growing up in certain neighborhoods, opting out of gang membership is less straight forward than you make it sound.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > is less straight forward than you make it sound. Where do you think I comment on the ease of opting out of gangs?
scotth 5y ago
Why exclude gang violence? The US has armed gangs.
- detaro 5y ago
  I think the argument is usually in the context of "it's mostly people involved with gangs, it doesn't change much for the murder risk for a 'normal citizen'"

m_mueller 5y ago

Think about this number 5 for a moment. Using a simplistic statistical model it means that you have a ~0.4% risk of getting murdered by a gun over a 80 year lifetime. That's not far off of COVID as an unvaccinated individual. Now compare how people react about that news...

spinach 5y ago
There are many terrible consequences for health from COVID besides dying.
iso1631 5y ago
2018 US murders: 15,000 Covid deaths in last 15 months: 625,000 (500k/year) So 30 times more likely to be killed by covid than by murder.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  Not if you are below about 70 years old. Most people who die in covid are old. I'd think most people who get shot, are younger
  - oarsinsync 5y ago
    > Not if you are below about 70 years old. As another commentor noted: > However, if you arbitrarily throw away the number one cause of violence in other countries, surprisingly enough, their numbers are also way lower.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      I replied to "So 30 times more likely" -- but it's not, it's either a lot higher, or a lot lower. Fall accidents are also dangerous once you're old, doesn't mean it makes sense to compare that with gun violence or swatting
- Koshkin 5y ago
  Vehicle deaths (2019): 37,595.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

We also have a much higher per-capita rate of incarceration regardless. Perhaps it isn't that we have a lot more murders because of guns, but because we're a culture that likes to solve problems with violence following our government's example.

LevGoldstein 5y ago

The US also has considerably higher wealth inequality than the other countries you've listed, and hence higher motivation for violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in... That said, I wouldn't consider those countries directly comparable as far as their position in the world, and how their culture is affected by that position. Russia is probably it's most direct peer, and is comparably closer when looking at wealth inequality and homicide rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...