4 ms·

Totally agree. This is basically the same as blaming the first-day developer that wipes the production database. It's more on the police to change their behavi

Totally agree. This is basically the same as blaming the first-day developer that wipes the production database. It's more on the police to change their behavior than to expect kids to stop being imbeciles.

genocidicbunny 5y ago
In my opinion, in these swatting incidents, the most responsible party is the police department answering the call without doing even a modicum of due diligence. The kids are stupid -- as kids will be, but there's not way a prank call should be able to summon a death squad to someone's door without there being _some_ checks.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Not doing due diligence is a legacy of Columbine, where waiting cost lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Police_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - watwut 5y ago
    They waited for very long time after many reports of shooting. The ongoing shooting was heard outside. You talk about the change of tactic in case of multiple times reported mass shooting in public building. It is not nearly the same situation.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  "There's a shooting going on at my neighbor's. Someone's already dead! Help! Help!" "Hang on... While we do due diligence!" What due diligence would or could the police do? Maybe they could tell if the caller location was far away or overseas, but beyond that... My intuition, without seeing the relevant data, is that rapid police response is worth the cost of occasional swatting.
  - asmithmd1 5y ago
    Is it? I am asking a real question. How many people are saved by rapid police response vs. killed inadvertently? Where is there data that could be used to answer that question?
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      I don't know. It's simply my intuition. I know that I would want the police to respond rapidly if I called them about a shooter. I also know that swatting deaths are rare enough to get broad news attention, whereas I rarely hear about people saved by rapid police response, though I know they exist. I sometimes look at the Citizen app (though I don't have notifications on) and there seem to be multiple instances that would benefit from a rapid response daily - theft, threats, domestic violence, shots fired, etc. I myself recently witnessed a fight and another passerby called the police. The police arrived within minutes and settled what might've escalated into a worse situation. I'm not aware of any swattings in my location, let alone fatal ones. I'd be curious to see data on this problem.
      - watwut 5y ago
        > I also know that swatting deaths are rare enough to get broad news attention, whereas I rarely hear about people saved by rapid police response, though I know they exist. Swatting destroys peoples house, traumatize people, injures people pretty much on the regular. And no one will pay you back for what was destroyed. Just because no one died does not mean no damage was done.
  - fouc 5y ago
    Due diligence would have to still require a team showing up, but how aggressively the team behaves needs to be based on any actual data/evidence they can gather on-site, rather than operating on assumptions.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      There is no way you can ask or expect police to show up to what may be an active shooter situation and be more passive. They may be entering a situation where split second reactions mean the difference between life and death.
- okprod 5y ago
  In the US many police departments and personnel are under-trained, but no, "the most responsible party" are the human beings doing the swatting, regardless of their age. So if I'm young and "stupid" I can go around murdering people?
mannykannot 5y ago
This is an utterly irrelevant comparison. A more accurate one would be someone (not necessarily a first-day developer) who wiped the database while trying to cause trouble - though the consequences are not so dire in this case. This is not just stupidity, it is malicious stupidity.
0xEFF 5y ago
The boy who called wolf is an old children’s story for a reason. What alternative behavior do you suggest?
- smegger001 5y ago
  checking the location of thee caller. If its not coming from somewhere nowhere near the location of the supposed shooting maybe be a little suspicious. 9-1-1 calls are supposed automatic location identification as part of the E-9-1-1 system.
  - unishark 5y ago
    Swatters are obviously hacking the system by finding ways around that like spoofing numbers. This is a problem that will always exist, though the phone system certainly needs to be be made more reliable. But there's not much the cops themselves can do as a policy change. These laws you cite also force police to accept calls from burner phones with no identity. In one case the swatter called the local police's non-emergency number which doesn't go through the reverse lookup. It's basically social engineering in these cases.
    - smegger001 5y ago
      which just brings up the question of why the telecom's cant identify where there own customers are. They obviously know otherwise they could delver service so why cant they pass that information on accurately. why is it even possible to fake the location.
- garmaine 5y ago
  Not sending out militarized police teams based on anonymous tips. (FWIW, I've been swatted before, and live in constant anxiety every since. I don't feel safe.)

genocidicbunny 5y ago

In my opinion, in these swatting incidents, the most responsible party is the police department answering the call without doing even a modicum of due diligence. The kids are stupid -- as kids will be, but there's not way a prank call should be able to summon a death squad to someone's door without there being _some_ checks.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Not doing due diligence is a legacy of Columbine, where waiting cost lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Police_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 5y ago
  They waited for very long time after many reports of shooting. The ongoing shooting was heard outside. You talk about the change of tactic in case of multiple times reported mass shooting in public building. It is not nearly the same situation.
ALittleLight 5y ago
"There's a shooting going on at my neighbor's. Someone's already dead! Help! Help!" "Hang on... While we do due diligence!" What due diligence would or could the police do? Maybe they could tell if the caller location was far away or overseas, but beyond that... My intuition, without seeing the relevant data, is that rapid police response is worth the cost of occasional swatting.
- asmithmd1 5y ago
  Is it? I am asking a real question. How many people are saved by rapid police response vs. killed inadvertently? Where is there data that could be used to answer that question?
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    I don't know. It's simply my intuition. I know that I would want the police to respond rapidly if I called them about a shooter. I also know that swatting deaths are rare enough to get broad news attention, whereas I rarely hear about people saved by rapid police response, though I know they exist. I sometimes look at the Citizen app (though I don't have notifications on) and there seem to be multiple instances that would benefit from a rapid response daily - theft, threats, domestic violence, shots fired, etc. I myself recently witnessed a fight and another passerby called the police. The police arrived within minutes and settled what might've escalated into a worse situation. I'm not aware of any swattings in my location, let alone fatal ones. I'd be curious to see data on this problem.
    - watwut 5y ago
      > I also know that swatting deaths are rare enough to get broad news attention, whereas I rarely hear about people saved by rapid police response, though I know they exist. Swatting destroys peoples house, traumatize people, injures people pretty much on the regular. And no one will pay you back for what was destroyed. Just because no one died does not mean no damage was done.
- fouc 5y ago
  Due diligence would have to still require a team showing up, but how aggressively the team behaves needs to be based on any actual data/evidence they can gather on-site, rather than operating on assumptions.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    There is no way you can ask or expect police to show up to what may be an active shooter situation and be more passive. They may be entering a situation where split second reactions mean the difference between life and death.
okprod 5y ago
In the US many police departments and personnel are under-trained, but no, "the most responsible party" are the human beings doing the swatting, regardless of their age. So if I'm young and "stupid" I can go around murdering people?

mannykannot 5y ago

This is an utterly irrelevant comparison. A more accurate one would be someone (not necessarily a first-day developer) who wiped the database while trying to cause trouble - though the consequences are not so dire in this case. This is not just stupidity, it is malicious stupidity.

0xEFF 5y ago

The boy who called wolf is an old children’s story for a reason. What alternative behavior do you suggest?

smegger001 5y ago
checking the location of thee caller. If its not coming from somewhere nowhere near the location of the supposed shooting maybe be a little suspicious. 9-1-1 calls are supposed automatic location identification as part of the E-9-1-1 system.
- unishark 5y ago
  Swatters are obviously hacking the system by finding ways around that like spoofing numbers. This is a problem that will always exist, though the phone system certainly needs to be be made more reliable. But there's not much the cops themselves can do as a policy change. These laws you cite also force police to accept calls from burner phones with no identity. In one case the swatter called the local police's non-emergency number which doesn't go through the reverse lookup. It's basically social engineering in these cases.
  - smegger001 5y ago
    which just brings up the question of why the telecom's cant identify where there own customers are. They obviously know otherwise they could delver service so why cant they pass that information on accurately. why is it even possible to fake the location.
garmaine 5y ago
Not sending out militarized police teams based on anonymous tips. (FWIW, I've been swatted before, and live in constant anxiety every since. I don't feel safe.)