4 ms·

To be maximally fair they didn't kill the old guy a heart attack did which might have been unavoidable.

by michaelmrose 5y ago

duncan-donuts 5y ago
Are we victim blaming now? Is that what we’re doing?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  Are we being deliberately obtuse in order to inject left-wing buzzwords into situations where they're completely inapplicable? It's that what we're doing?
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  I meant the cops dont apear to be at fault for a change.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bawolff 5y ago
That's stupid. If you shoot someone, we don't say that technically the bullet killed them not the person who fired the shot.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  That's a false equivalence. If you shoot someone with a gun, it's reasonable to expect them to die. It is not a reasonable expectation that someone will die when you ask them their name and tell them to put down their weapon.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  You can reasonably know that shooting a person with a bullet will cause injury or death. Telling them to drop their weapon and surrender does not usually cause injury or death.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  I meant the cops might not be at fault
jodrellblank 5y ago
I went googling and found this: A study at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine has demonstrated that sudden emotional stress can result in reversible heart failure[1]. It goes on "a traumatic event such as a breakup, the death of a loved one, or even the shock of a surprise party can provoke a heart attack in people who don't have heart disease and are otherwise healthy, researchers say". and "Dr. Wittstein and his research team found that some people may respond to sudden, overwhelming emotional stress by releasing large amounts of adrenalin and other chemicals into the blood stream. These chemicals can be temporarily toxic to the heart, effectively stunning the muscle and producing symptoms similar to those of a typical heart attack: chest pain, fluid in the lungs, shortness of breath and heart failure. However, there are no further similarities between "broken heart" syndrome and cardiac arrest. Closer inspection using blood tests and magnetic resonance imaging scans failed to show the typical heart attack signs, such as irreversible muscle damage and elevated levels of certain enzymes." If that happened, it would have been avoidable; it doesn't necessarily mean he was sickly and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. (Aside: I wonder if anyone here would think comparable things of the organizers of a surprise party, 16 years after it's published in a medical journal that they can be fatal? What if the birthay person was known to hate surprise parties? Anyone calling for a death penalty or years in prison?) [1] https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2005/03/sudden-shock-can-lead-to-heart-attack-81296 https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2005/03/sudden-shock-c...
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  I meant the cops aren't necessarily at fault as the unavoidable stress of such a confrontation might have inevitably ended in a difficult to predict or mitigate health complications. Swatting has a predictable risk of mortality thus the criminals don't get off morally because their victim died a different way than expected.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    > "because their victim died a different way than expected." I haven't seen a claim that the perpetrators expected the man to die - didn't they want to harass and scare him until he gave up his Twitter handle? If he was dead they'd have no chance of getting access to it, therefore they likely were not planning for him to die, right?

To be maximally fair they didn't kill the old guy a heart attack did which might have been unavoidable.

duncan-donuts 5y ago

Are we victim blaming now? Is that what we’re doing?

AussieWog93 5y ago
Are we being deliberately obtuse in order to inject left-wing buzzwords into situations where they're completely inapplicable? It's that what we're doing?
michaelmrose 5y ago
I meant the cops dont apear to be at fault for a change.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bawolff 5y ago

That's stupid. If you shoot someone, we don't say that technically the bullet killed them not the person who fired the shot.

AussieWog93 5y ago
That's a false equivalence. If you shoot someone with a gun, it's reasonable to expect them to die. It is not a reasonable expectation that someone will die when you ask them their name and tell them to put down their weapon.
MattGaiser 5y ago
You can reasonably know that shooting a person with a bullet will cause injury or death. Telling them to drop their weapon and surrender does not usually cause injury or death.
michaelmrose 5y ago
I meant the cops might not be at fault

jodrellblank 5y ago

I went googling and found this: A study at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine has demonstrated that sudden emotional stress can result in reversible heart failure[1]. It goes on "a traumatic event such as a breakup, the death of a loved one, or even the shock of a surprise party can provoke a heart attack in people who don't have heart disease and are otherwise healthy, researchers say". and "Dr. Wittstein and his research team found that some people may respond to sudden, overwhelming emotional stress by releasing large amounts of adrenalin and other chemicals into the blood stream. These chemicals can be temporarily toxic to the heart, effectively stunning the muscle and producing symptoms similar to those of a typical heart attack: chest pain, fluid in the lungs, shortness of breath and heart failure. However, there are no further similarities between "broken heart" syndrome and cardiac arrest. Closer inspection using blood tests and magnetic resonance imaging scans failed to show the typical heart attack signs, such as irreversible muscle damage and elevated levels of certain enzymes." If that happened, it would have been avoidable; it doesn't necessarily mean he was sickly and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. (Aside: I wonder if anyone here would think comparable things of the organizers of a surprise party, 16 years after it's published in a medical journal that they can be fatal? What if the birthay person was known to hate surprise parties? Anyone calling for a death penalty or years in prison?) [1] https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2005/03/sudden-shock-can-lead-to-heart-attack-81296 https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2005/03/sudden-shock-c...

michaelmrose 5y ago
I meant the cops aren't necessarily at fault as the unavoidable stress of such a confrontation might have inevitably ended in a difficult to predict or mitigate health complications. Swatting has a predictable risk of mortality thus the criminals don't get off morally because their victim died a different way than expected.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  > "because their victim died a different way than expected." I haven't seen a claim that the perpetrators expected the man to die - didn't they want to harass and scare him until he gave up his Twitter handle? If he was dead they'd have no chance of getting access to it, therefore they likely were not planning for him to die, right?