4 ms·

People like that just need to be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives. There's absolutely no reason someone like that should be permitted to be part

People like that just need to be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives. There's absolutely no reason someone like that should be permitted to be part of society.

hashbig 5y ago
Not sure why this is downvoted. I am _radically_ against prison punishments for non-violent crimes since they don't achieve anything, but for crimes like these, I honestly don't want to live in a society where someone with this kind of judgement is allowed to roam freely and cause more harm.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  They are children. Children make mistakes.
  - ihsw 5y ago
    If you are old enough to do the crime then you are old enough to do the time.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Yes, mistakes are another word for bad choices. How many violent criminals are making good choices?
  - mcguire 5y ago
    "The family eventually learned, earlier that day, an anonymous caller demanded Mark hand over his Twitter handle worth thousands of dollars. Mark refused. Hours later, the unthinkable happened. "Months later, the family learned about Shane Sonderman, who was a minor back in April 2020 when the crime was committed. "Sonderman is currently behind bars awaiting trial. A Federal Grand Jury indictment claims he had six victims across the country. Herring was the only one who died." https://www.wkrn.com/news/swatting-call-leads-to-death-of-tn-man-targeted-for-twitter-handle/ https://www.wkrn.com/news/swatting-call-leads-to-death-of-tn...
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  The problem is that a significant part of the population has this kind of judgment. Kids are stupid and 50‰ are dumber than average. It is possible that their judgment isn't that that far off the norm, and it was an unlikely string of events that led to this outcome. Clearly punishment is appropriate, but we rarely hand out life imprisonment for first degree murder. Seems like this would be more akin to manslaughter.
whymauri 5y ago
With the mass militarization of the police, malicious SWATing is basically attempted murder.
- mancerayder 5y ago
  Sure, but if police aren't militarized, if you look at the gun stats you see that we are a heavily armed nation. This isn't the UK. What are police supposed to do, go in there with truncheons in one hand and pepper spray in the other? The gunplay is out of control at the moment. The cat's out of the bag and we've screwed up.
- meowface 5y ago
  Especially since there've now been (at least) three incidents where SWATing has directly led to house residents dying, and many more incidents where pets have been shot and killed. It was always attempted murder, but at this point there's absolutely no way for them to deny it. Anyone who still SWATs people is fully aware of the potential consequences.
jimmaswell 5y ago
The way I see it, swatting is attempted 1st degree murder and if the victim dies the death penalty should be on the table.
- bawolff 5y ago
  First degree murder is a little much (do you really think this is equivalent to taking a gun and shooting someone with pre-planning and full intention to kill them?), but certainly involuntary manslaughter fits.
  - cstejerean 5y ago
    Not sure what about planning a swatting on Discord and then executing on that plan would qualify as involuntary. The actions were voluntary, intended to cause harm to the victim and a reasonable person would foresee that they could result in death.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      I don't think the intent is to cause death though.
    - bawolff 5y ago
      Ianal but based on wikipedia that still sounds more like involuntary to me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bigwavedave 5y ago
    > First degree murder is a little much (do you really think this is equivalent to taking a gun and shooting someone with pre-planning and full intention to kill them?), but certainly involuntary manslaughter fits. IAMN[even_close_to_being]AL, but I think you're right about it being involuntary manslaughter. My very limited understanding is that when a drunk driver kills someone, it's involuntary manslaughter because they're undertaking a risky behavior with intent neither to kill nor cause bodily harm, but death occured as a result of that behavior anyway. I think it could only be voluntary manslaughter if the circumstances were wildly different, like if the man got swatted, had a heart attack or stroke or something life threatening after the police had left, and the perpetrators were the only ones watching the stream and decided, in the heat of the moment as they watched his death unfold, that they would let him die for some reason, like they were angry at him for having the audacity to keep streaming right after the swat... I dunno. I believe it could only be murder if in the premeditated steps ("hey, let's swat this guy!"), the guys deliberately planned on using the swat to give this man a heart attack or serious bodily injury. At least, that's my very limited understanding; I'm just some guy with a beard, I don't really know anything about anything.
dang 5y ago
Ok, but please don't post shallow fulminations to HN even when (especially when) something is enraging. It reliably lowers discussion quality, which only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

People like that just need to be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives. There's absolutely no reason someone like that should be permitted to be part of society.

hashbig 5y ago

Not sure why this is downvoted. I am _radically_ against prison punishments for non-violent crimes since they don't achieve anything, but for crimes like these, I honestly don't want to live in a society where someone with this kind of judgement is allowed to roam freely and cause more harm.

3pt14159 5y ago
They are children. Children make mistakes.
- ihsw 5y ago
  If you are old enough to do the crime then you are old enough to do the time.
- bawolff 5y ago
  Yes, mistakes are another word for bad choices. How many violent criminals are making good choices?
- mcguire 5y ago
  "The family eventually learned, earlier that day, an anonymous caller demanded Mark hand over his Twitter handle worth thousands of dollars. Mark refused. Hours later, the unthinkable happened. "Months later, the family learned about Shane Sonderman, who was a minor back in April 2020 when the crime was committed. "Sonderman is currently behind bars awaiting trial. A Federal Grand Jury indictment claims he had six victims across the country. Herring was the only one who died." https://www.wkrn.com/news/swatting-call-leads-to-death-of-tn-man-targeted-for-twitter-handle/ https://www.wkrn.com/news/swatting-call-leads-to-death-of-tn...
s1artibartfast 5y ago
The problem is that a significant part of the population has this kind of judgment. Kids are stupid and 50‰ are dumber than average. It is possible that their judgment isn't that that far off the norm, and it was an unlikely string of events that led to this outcome. Clearly punishment is appropriate, but we rarely hand out life imprisonment for first degree murder. Seems like this would be more akin to manslaughter.

whymauri 5y ago

With the mass militarization of the police, malicious SWATing is basically attempted murder.

mancerayder 5y ago
Sure, but if police aren't militarized, if you look at the gun stats you see that we are a heavily armed nation. This isn't the UK. What are police supposed to do, go in there with truncheons in one hand and pepper spray in the other? The gunplay is out of control at the moment. The cat's out of the bag and we've screwed up.
meowface 5y ago
Especially since there've now been (at least) three incidents where SWATing has directly led to house residents dying, and many more incidents where pets have been shot and killed. It was always attempted murder, but at this point there's absolutely no way for them to deny it. Anyone who still SWATs people is fully aware of the potential consequences.

jimmaswell 5y ago

The way I see it, swatting is attempted 1st degree murder and if the victim dies the death penalty should be on the table.

bawolff 5y ago
First degree murder is a little much (do you really think this is equivalent to taking a gun and shooting someone with pre-planning and full intention to kill them?), but certainly involuntary manslaughter fits.
- cstejerean 5y ago
  Not sure what about planning a swatting on Discord and then executing on that plan would qualify as involuntary. The actions were voluntary, intended to cause harm to the victim and a reasonable person would foresee that they could result in death.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    I don't think the intent is to cause death though.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Ianal but based on wikipedia that still sounds more like involuntary to me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bigwavedave 5y ago
  > First degree murder is a little much (do you really think this is equivalent to taking a gun and shooting someone with pre-planning and full intention to kill them?), but certainly involuntary manslaughter fits. IAMN[even_close_to_being]AL, but I think you're right about it being involuntary manslaughter. My very limited understanding is that when a drunk driver kills someone, it's involuntary manslaughter because they're undertaking a risky behavior with intent neither to kill nor cause bodily harm, but death occured as a result of that behavior anyway. I think it could only be voluntary manslaughter if the circumstances were wildly different, like if the man got swatted, had a heart attack or stroke or something life threatening after the police had left, and the perpetrators were the only ones watching the stream and decided, in the heat of the moment as they watched his death unfold, that they would let him die for some reason, like they were angry at him for having the audacity to keep streaming right after the swat... I dunno. I believe it could only be murder if in the premeditated steps ("hey, let's swat this guy!"), the guys deliberately planned on using the swat to give this man a heart attack or serious bodily injury. At least, that's my very limited understanding; I'm just some guy with a beard, I don't really know anything about anything.

dang 5y ago

Ok, but please don't post shallow fulminations to HN even when (especially when) something is enraging. It reliably lowers discussion quality, which only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html