7 ms·

Cash wouldn't be allowed to be invented today.

by shiado 5y ago

thomasahle 5y ago
Cash mostly isn't allowed today, if you are transferring large enough sums of money. Probably for the better.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Source of such bold claim? You can absolutely pay cash for (almost) anything. Even if you're buying a house, you can pay cash if both sides agree to it, and the solicitors check everything is legit and you can prove where you got the money from - but there is completely nothing in law that would prohibit such transaction from happening.
  - jsbdk 5y ago
    In Spain soon it will be impossible to pay more than 1k in cash. Current limit is around 3k iirc. I guess it's the same in most EU countries.
    - forty 5y ago
      Not sure why someone downvoted that. In France it's limited to 1000€ currently. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999
      - jsbdk 5y ago
        Any comment that criticises the EU gets downvoted immediately here. Link to a news piece commenting the new Spanish law: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20210630/congrso-aprueba-ley-prohibe-pagar-mas-1000-euros-efectivo/2116761.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20210630/congrso-aprueba-ley-pr...
        forty 5y ago
        I'm not really sure your comment was criticizing anything though, just stating fact. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally I'm more than happy to see cash disappear since I think it's mostly useful for laundering money and tax avoidance.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        chrisco255 5y ago
        It's useful for privacy, which is a basic human right. It's useful if electronic systems go down. It's useful in an emergency situation. It's useful for donations. It's useful for instant settlement. You're more than happy to give away your financial sovereignty and to take away your optionality because you think they'll collect more taxes from it?
        forty 5y ago
        Financial sovereignty? I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but cash has value just because the states says so. If they ever said it's just paper, the next day it's worth 0. And I don't use cash already so I'm not giving anything away :) In my country, privacy doesn't include hiding financial transactions from the state. I think they have the right to know everything on this topic, even though cash obviously makes it harder for them (and more expensive for them, so for the tax payer). I don't really see how I benefit from that except that I need to pay more taxes to make up for those who use cash to hide their taxable transactions. Absolutely agree on the fallback in case of downtime from the payment systems. We'll have to find a good solution to that probably before dropping cash completely. (Note that I never said that cash can/should be dropped right now. They are other missing things, like garantying that anyone can get a payment mean for free)
        chrisco255 5y ago
        No, it doesn't. The value of cash is decided by an open market. Crypto is proof enough that all you need is liquidity and a market for something to be exchangeable like cash. Privacy is a universal human right. Your ignorance of that fact and your state's refusal to accept that is another issue entirely. But history is quite clear about what happens to countries and citizens thereof that continually encroach on private human rights.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        On that page that you linked it literally says: "The payment in cash between individuals (purchase of a car or a painting for example) is not limited. A writing is necessary beyond 1,500 € to prove the payments ." In fact, even below it, where it mentions the 1000 euro limit for professional transactions: "Note: this limit does not apply to people who have no other means of payment or no deposit account."
        forty 5y ago
        Yes there are exceptions, but the general rule is that payment in cash are limited in amount. I was just illustrating parents comments that having cash payments limited in amount is not science fiction.
  - tobltobs 5y ago
    Payments over 10K in Cash are already forbidden in most EU countries. There are some exemptions to this rule and Germany and Austria do not have such a law until now. But it is planned to make this an EU wide law. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_3690 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_... (EU-wide limit of €10,000 on large cash payments)
    - Andys 5y ago
      Australian government has been unsuccessfully trying to bring this in too. its only a matter of time.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    As others have mentioned the EU is mulling an EU wide “ban” of transactions above €10,000. However most member states already have that in place including far lower limits. In Greece all cash transactions above €500 have to go through an AML due diligence process which includes a full KYC for both the buyer, seller and any beneficiaries of the transaction. Basically it’s too much of a hassle to do so businesses simply do not accept cash, so anything from paying for a Hotel stay to buying a Laptop isn’t possible without a mountain of paper work which means it’s impossible in reality.
    - chrisco255 5y ago
      As an American, that's insane sounding to me. Without financial sovereignty the American revolution would have never happened. And we'd still be ruled by monarchs.
      - Mirioron 5y ago
        Maybe that's the point? It's hard to be authoritarian if people can rebel. Some EU politicians (Verhofstadt) have been talking about the "European Empire".
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        It is insane to me to be in discussions like this and see Europeans trust their government more than they trust their mothers. Literally every time in history they've gotten complacent with their governments their governments tried to kill them all, and still they never learn.
        ulzeraj 5y ago
        You think this is insane? Wait til you find out about who is part of the oh so trusted government. The ECB president is a convicted criminal charged of financial crimes: https://www.complianceweek.com/imfs-christine-lagarde-convicted-of-financial-negligence/10034.article https://www.complianceweek.com/imfs-christine-lagarde-convic...
        chrisco255 5y ago
  - djbebs 5y ago
    Legally speaking, no you can't. Where I'm from basically anything above 1000€ you're legally prohibited from using cash and might be f8ned for it.
- dannyw 5y ago
  Better for whom? Because it's the Wikileaks, Snowdens, and Extinction Rebellions that get hurt by laws like these. In terms of money laundering for the rich, that's all through 'fine art' and real estate.
  - thomasahle 5y ago
    Even if visa and the others have stopped doing transactions to Snowden et al., I don't think sending them bitcoin is illegal? It shouldn't matter whether their accounts are anonymous
    - pennaMan 5y ago
      >I don't think sending them bitcoin is illegal? Well, according to the EU, not yet.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    Seriously, the number of people (maybe some aren't real people, who knows) that are applauding this, I am incredulous. Many of these people probably wouldn't pass up the opportunity to jump into every shit-on-america thread they stumble across to talk about how great privacy laws in Europe are.
- dheera 5y ago
  I don't think there are any laws preventing that, it's just that businesses may not want to deal with the liability, and it makes you a target.
0-_-0 5y ago
In practice cash is traced relatively easily.

Cash wouldn't be allowed to be invented today.

by shiado 5y ago

Cash wouldn't be allowed to be invented today.

thomasahle 5y ago

Cash mostly isn't allowed today, if you are transferring large enough sums of money. Probably for the better.

gambiting 5y ago
Source of such bold claim? You can absolutely pay cash for (almost) anything. Even if you're buying a house, you can pay cash if both sides agree to it, and the solicitors check everything is legit and you can prove where you got the money from - but there is completely nothing in law that would prohibit such transaction from happening.
- jsbdk 5y ago
  In Spain soon it will be impossible to pay more than 1k in cash. Current limit is around 3k iirc. I guess it's the same in most EU countries.
  - forty 5y ago
    Not sure why someone downvoted that. In France it's limited to 1000€ currently. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999
    - jsbdk 5y ago
      Any comment that criticises the EU gets downvoted immediately here. Link to a news piece commenting the new Spanish law: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20210630/congrso-aprueba-ley-prohibe-pagar-mas-1000-euros-efectivo/2116761.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20210630/congrso-aprueba-ley-pr...
      - forty 5y ago
        I'm not really sure your comment was criticizing anything though, just stating fact. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally I'm more than happy to see cash disappear since I think it's mostly useful for laundering money and tax avoidance.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        chrisco255 5y ago
        It's useful for privacy, which is a basic human right. It's useful if electronic systems go down. It's useful in an emergency situation. It's useful for donations. It's useful for instant settlement. You're more than happy to give away your financial sovereignty and to take away your optionality because you think they'll collect more taxes from it?
        forty 5y ago
        Financial sovereignty? I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but cash has value just because the states says so. If they ever said it's just paper, the next day it's worth 0. And I don't use cash already so I'm not giving anything away :) In my country, privacy doesn't include hiding financial transactions from the state. I think they have the right to know everything on this topic, even though cash obviously makes it harder for them (and more expensive for them, so for the tax payer). I don't really see how I benefit from that except that I need to pay more taxes to make up for those who use cash to hide their taxable transactions. Absolutely agree on the fallback in case of downtime from the payment systems. We'll have to find a good solution to that probably before dropping cash completely. (Note that I never said that cash can/should be dropped right now. They are other missing things, like garantying that anyone can get a payment mean for free)
        chrisco255 5y ago
        No, it doesn't. The value of cash is decided by an open market. Crypto is proof enough that all you need is liquidity and a market for something to be exchangeable like cash. Privacy is a universal human right. Your ignorance of that fact and your state's refusal to accept that is another issue entirely. But history is quite clear about what happens to countries and citizens thereof that continually encroach on private human rights.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      On that page that you linked it literally says: "The payment in cash between individuals (purchase of a car or a painting for example) is not limited. A writing is necessary beyond 1,500 € to prove the payments ." In fact, even below it, where it mentions the 1000 euro limit for professional transactions: "Note: this limit does not apply to people who have no other means of payment or no deposit account."
      - forty 5y ago
        Yes there are exceptions, but the general rule is that payment in cash are limited in amount. I was just illustrating parents comments that having cash payments limited in amount is not science fiction.
- tobltobs 5y ago
  Payments over 10K in Cash are already forbidden in most EU countries. There are some exemptions to this rule and Germany and Austria do not have such a law until now. But it is planned to make this an EU wide law. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_3690 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_... (EU-wide limit of €10,000 on large cash payments)
  - Andys 5y ago
    Australian government has been unsuccessfully trying to bring this in too. its only a matter of time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dogma1138 5y ago
  As others have mentioned the EU is mulling an EU wide “ban” of transactions above €10,000. However most member states already have that in place including far lower limits. In Greece all cash transactions above €500 have to go through an AML due diligence process which includes a full KYC for both the buyer, seller and any beneficiaries of the transaction. Basically it’s too much of a hassle to do so businesses simply do not accept cash, so anything from paying for a Hotel stay to buying a Laptop isn’t possible without a mountain of paper work which means it’s impossible in reality.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    As an American, that's insane sounding to me. Without financial sovereignty the American revolution would have never happened. And we'd still be ruled by monarchs.
    - Mirioron 5y ago
      Maybe that's the point? It's hard to be authoritarian if people can rebel. Some EU politicians (Verhofstadt) have been talking about the "European Empire".
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      It is insane to me to be in discussions like this and see Europeans trust their government more than they trust their mothers. Literally every time in history they've gotten complacent with their governments their governments tried to kill them all, and still they never learn.
      - ulzeraj 5y ago
        You think this is insane? Wait til you find out about who is part of the oh so trusted government. The ECB president is a convicted criminal charged of financial crimes: https://www.complianceweek.com/imfs-christine-lagarde-convicted-of-financial-negligence/10034.article https://www.complianceweek.com/imfs-christine-lagarde-convic...
      - chrisco255 5y ago
- djbebs 5y ago
  Legally speaking, no you can't. Where I'm from basically anything above 1000€ you're legally prohibited from using cash and might be f8ned for it.
dannyw 5y ago
Better for whom? Because it's the Wikileaks, Snowdens, and Extinction Rebellions that get hurt by laws like these. In terms of money laundering for the rich, that's all through 'fine art' and real estate.
- thomasahle 5y ago
  Even if visa and the others have stopped doing transactions to Snowden et al., I don't think sending them bitcoin is illegal? It shouldn't matter whether their accounts are anonymous
  - pennaMan 5y ago
    >I don't think sending them bitcoin is illegal? Well, according to the EU, not yet.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  Seriously, the number of people (maybe some aren't real people, who knows) that are applauding this, I am incredulous. Many of these people probably wouldn't pass up the opportunity to jump into every shit-on-america thread they stumble across to talk about how great privacy laws in Europe are.
dheera 5y ago
I don't think there are any laws preventing that, it's just that businesses may not want to deal with the liability, and it makes you a target.

0-_-0 5y ago

In practice cash is traced relatively easily.