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That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructiv

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I do not really want to discourage this line of thinking, but please note the old fashioned golden rule ( he with the gold makes the rules ). Apart from that, check crypto trends and quickly you will notice that they are very few projects that care about it in any real way. Every major crypto now effectively all about centralization, not the opposite. For different reasons than the central banks, naturally. Still, the trends are hard to ignore. Otherwise, we would already have crypto outright banned or fully decentralized by now.
- Trias11 5y ago
  Lots of crypto projects are commercial businesses and this certainly creates conflict of interest toward monetizing and centralization. However there are more and more truly decentralization projects. Anything that doesn't do KYC when related to crypto trading/exchanging - have to be
- csomar 5y ago
  99% of crypto ventures are pump-and-dump schemes. Centralized crap pays better in the short term and that's what these projects are after: a quick pump. Don't focus on the short-term if you want to make serious money or learn a technology that will stick around.
delaaxe 5y ago
Decentralize everything = make all your transactions visible by anyone
- stavros 5y ago
  Except this is completely untrue, since there are private cryptocurrencies you can use.
  - elmo2you 5y ago
    How private are those then? Isn't it true that at least everything is visible to at least all participants? EDIT: in other words, my question is actually whether your claim has relevance, considering how most crypto currencies aim to be public (or that's at least my impression).
    - stavros 5y ago
      No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.
      - elmo2you 5y ago
        So, then how does that technically work? How will integrity be verified/guaranteed? If it's just an application level shielding, as in a separation between user software that can't access the information but a layer/cluster of infrastructure software that can, then I'm not so sure if its nothing more than rather meaningless cosmetics. Do you by any change have some references as to how this would work? because I sincerely believe that this statement of "decentralization means access to all" actually fundamentally holds. EDIT: I'm also doubting the classification of decentralized, if a piece of the user software relies on something else that has more capabilities (essentially a typical trait of centralization).
        stavros 5y ago
        Sure, there are a ton of resources here: https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work
        hanniabu 5y ago
        Zk-proofs
- elmo2you 5y ago
  That is actually a surprisingly simple yet fundamentally true summation. Thank you.
the-dude 5y ago
> This total control nonsense Also known as taxes. > these dinosaur idiots Taxman.
- sabjut 5y ago
  I think it's really funny to see all these people think that they can with crypto game the millennia old system of taxation. Of course any sovereign nation is eventually going to break down any kinds of tax fraud. A state unable to collect taxes ceases to be a sovereign state.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    Arguments over taxation have always led to war, if history is any example… right now people bullish the decentralization narrative are willing to pay taxes to miners/validators/protocols and less so governments. Eventually this will lead to decentralized warfare with dao's fighting asymmetrically and not playing by the old rules.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    You don't need to track all cash flow in society to collect taxes. You do need it specifically for personal income tax. If we, say, taxed property and other monopoly rights more extensively instead (in the vein of georgism), such an arrangement wouldn't be so privacy-invasive. It would also mean that those at the top would have to pay more, though - so...
  - csomar 5y ago
    The UAE and Qatar will disagree. Direct taxation is a thing, and is unavoidable (whether you are using crypto or quantum currencies). Complex taxation that hides where you paid taxes (ie: VAT) or where your taxes went (ie: infrastructure or old persons pension) is what's at risk here.
nly 5y ago
Is uniswap really decentralised? I mean it has a domain you can take down
- Trias11 5y ago
  No KYC. It's good enough for now.
  - sizzle 5y ago
    You can see you used uniswap for your wallet activity so you are screwed if your wallet address is every audited in the not so distant future?
- ushakov 5y ago
  it's hosted on IPFS and the source code is on GitHub https://github.com/Uniswap https://github.com/Uniswap
  - nly 5y ago
    My understanding was the licensing on the web interface was not liberal
    - ushakov 5y ago
      sure, but the smart contract (backend) is deployed on public ethereum blockchain, nothings can stop you from building your own client
  - ac29 5y ago
    So what happens if a US government entity issues Protocol Labs a cease and desist order (they are the YC-funded, Palo Alto California based creator of IPFS)? Do they just roll over and go out of business? The network might be decentralized, but the company and people behind it are not.
    - Sargos 5y ago
seanalexander 5y ago
If it's a decentralized database then how does it enhance privacy?
- jacoblambda 5y ago
  Something like Monero or ZCash is decentralised by the same (or similar) means that Bitcoin and Ethereum are however they use various mechanisms to maintain privacy. Monero uses ring signatures and several other mechanisms to separate a transaction from the sender, recipient, and contents so that you can't reconstruct chains of transactions but you can still verify consistency across the blocks. Monero is reasonably private but it's still technically possible to rebuild some fragments of transaction chains even if it's extremely unlikely. ZCash on the other hand uses Zero Knowledge Proofs to verify correctness of the blocks and the transactions without leaking information about the system (such as the sender, recipient, or amounts). ZCash is much more computationally expensive, needs to be carefully callibrated, and needs the founding keys to be safely destroyed following the bootstrap of the system to remain secure however it does provide stronger and more easily mathematically verifiable assurances of privacy. "The Ceremony" is a really good one-off podcast about the story. But in general it is possible to have privacy preserving functionality in decentralised services, it just requires far more complicated maths and lots of statistics to make work correctly.
  - seanalexander 5y ago
    Cool, thanks for the resources!
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas I agree with most of crypto’s philosophy. But this obnoxious naivety makes me root for and materially support the other side. Is there a word for this?
- programmarchy 5y ago
  Contempt? Schadenfreude? Sadism, perhaps?
voldacar 5y ago
I really, really want to believe this but I don't think I can. Over the past several years there has been an unquantifiable but subjectively enormous shift in the atmosphere of the cryptocurrency world. At one point it shifted from being about paranoid hackers and techies trying to create a way of doing transactions that was free from trusted third parties to being essentially a space for grifters to shill shitcoins and idiots to buy them. Bitcoin went from being a thing with a radical, revolutionary purpose in the world to being "look, price graph goes up," and this fills me with a deep sense of foreboding. It increasingly feels like we are in a time when anything with any potential to harm the Regime (such as web, bitcoin, etc) just gets defanged and absorbed into the system. In a few years, your web browser will probably transmit the details of your mandatory TPM chip to facebook, netflix, etc so they can uniquely identify all devices with complete precision and deny access to unapproved (user-controlled) computers. Microsoft already only allows users to install other OSes/bootloaders on new computers by their good grace. The keys are theirs, not yours. With bitcoin we already have KYC/AML ruthlessly enforced at every onramp/offramp. It is already very hard to transact between fiat and crypto without presenting some form of government-issued identification, and it will only get harder as time goes on, I don't see how you could reverse this process. And that culture shift is important because the people whose voices are most dominant within the "crypto sphere" today don't seem to give a shit, really. The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. I desperately want to believe that it still survives and I'm just not seeing it somehow. But I simply can't.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  > The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. It's probably because the few remaining crypto people, in the space dominated mostly by scammers, realized that crypto anarchy is something that's fun to read about in a sci-fi novel, not something you actually want to live in.

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I do not really want to discourage this line of thinking, but please note the old fashioned golden rule ( he with the gold makes the rules ). Apart from that, check crypto trends and quickly you will notice that they are very few projects that care about it in any real way. Every major crypto now effectively all about centralization, not the opposite. For different reasons than the central banks, naturally. Still, the trends are hard to ignore. Otherwise, we would already have crypto outright banned or fully decentralized by now.

Trias11 5y ago
Lots of crypto projects are commercial businesses and this certainly creates conflict of interest toward monetizing and centralization. However there are more and more truly decentralization projects. Anything that doesn't do KYC when related to crypto trading/exchanging - have to be
csomar 5y ago
99% of crypto ventures are pump-and-dump schemes. Centralized crap pays better in the short term and that's what these projects are after: a quick pump. Don't focus on the short-term if you want to make serious money or learn a technology that will stick around.

delaaxe 5y ago

Decentralize everything = make all your transactions visible by anyone

stavros 5y ago
Except this is completely untrue, since there are private cryptocurrencies you can use.
- elmo2you 5y ago
  How private are those then? Isn't it true that at least everything is visible to at least all participants? EDIT: in other words, my question is actually whether your claim has relevance, considering how most crypto currencies aim to be public (or that's at least my impression).
  - stavros 5y ago
    No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.
    - elmo2you 5y ago
      So, then how does that technically work? How will integrity be verified/guaranteed? If it's just an application level shielding, as in a separation between user software that can't access the information but a layer/cluster of infrastructure software that can, then I'm not so sure if its nothing more than rather meaningless cosmetics. Do you by any change have some references as to how this would work? because I sincerely believe that this statement of "decentralization means access to all" actually fundamentally holds. EDIT: I'm also doubting the classification of decentralized, if a piece of the user software relies on something else that has more capabilities (essentially a typical trait of centralization).
      - stavros 5y ago
        Sure, there are a ton of resources here: https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work https://www.monero.how/how-does-monero-privacy-work
      - hanniabu 5y ago
        Zk-proofs
elmo2you 5y ago
That is actually a surprisingly simple yet fundamentally true summation. Thank you.

the-dude 5y ago

> This total control nonsense Also known as taxes. > these dinosaur idiots Taxman.

sabjut 5y ago
I think it's really funny to see all these people think that they can with crypto game the millennia old system of taxation. Of course any sovereign nation is eventually going to break down any kinds of tax fraud. A state unable to collect taxes ceases to be a sovereign state.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  Arguments over taxation have always led to war, if history is any example… right now people bullish the decentralization narrative are willing to pay taxes to miners/validators/protocols and less so governments. Eventually this will lead to decentralized warfare with dao's fighting asymmetrically and not playing by the old rules.
- int_19h 5y ago
  You don't need to track all cash flow in society to collect taxes. You do need it specifically for personal income tax. If we, say, taxed property and other monopoly rights more extensively instead (in the vein of georgism), such an arrangement wouldn't be so privacy-invasive. It would also mean that those at the top would have to pay more, though - so...
- csomar 5y ago
  The UAE and Qatar will disagree. Direct taxation is a thing, and is unavoidable (whether you are using crypto or quantum currencies). Complex taxation that hides where you paid taxes (ie: VAT) or where your taxes went (ie: infrastructure or old persons pension) is what's at risk here.

nly 5y ago

Is uniswap really decentralised? I mean it has a domain you can take down

Trias11 5y ago
No KYC. It's good enough for now.
- sizzle 5y ago
  You can see you used uniswap for your wallet activity so you are screwed if your wallet address is every audited in the not so distant future?
ushakov 5y ago
it's hosted on IPFS and the source code is on GitHub https://github.com/Uniswap https://github.com/Uniswap
- nly 5y ago
  My understanding was the licensing on the web interface was not liberal
  - ushakov 5y ago
    sure, but the smart contract (backend) is deployed on public ethereum blockchain, nothings can stop you from building your own client
- ac29 5y ago
  So what happens if a US government entity issues Protocol Labs a cease and desist order (they are the YC-funded, Palo Alto California based creator of IPFS)? Do they just roll over and go out of business? The network might be decentralized, but the company and people behind it are not.
  - Sargos 5y ago

seanalexander 5y ago

If it's a decentralized database then how does it enhance privacy?

jacoblambda 5y ago
Something like Monero or ZCash is decentralised by the same (or similar) means that Bitcoin and Ethereum are however they use various mechanisms to maintain privacy. Monero uses ring signatures and several other mechanisms to separate a transaction from the sender, recipient, and contents so that you can't reconstruct chains of transactions but you can still verify consistency across the blocks. Monero is reasonably private but it's still technically possible to rebuild some fragments of transaction chains even if it's extremely unlikely. ZCash on the other hand uses Zero Knowledge Proofs to verify correctness of the blocks and the transactions without leaking information about the system (such as the sender, recipient, or amounts). ZCash is much more computationally expensive, needs to be carefully callibrated, and needs the founding keys to be safely destroyed following the bootstrap of the system to remain secure however it does provide stronger and more easily mathematically verifiable assurances of privacy. "The Ceremony" is a really good one-off podcast about the story. But in general it is possible to have privacy preserving functionality in decentralised services, it just requires far more complicated maths and lots of statistics to make work correctly.
- seanalexander 5y ago
  Cool, thanks for the resources!

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas I agree with most of crypto’s philosophy. But this obnoxious naivety makes me root for and materially support the other side. Is there a word for this?

programmarchy 5y ago
Contempt? Schadenfreude? Sadism, perhaps?

voldacar 5y ago

I really, really want to believe this but I don't think I can. Over the past several years there has been an unquantifiable but subjectively enormous shift in the atmosphere of the cryptocurrency world. At one point it shifted from being about paranoid hackers and techies trying to create a way of doing transactions that was free from trusted third parties to being essentially a space for grifters to shill shitcoins and idiots to buy them. Bitcoin went from being a thing with a radical, revolutionary purpose in the world to being "look, price graph goes up," and this fills me with a deep sense of foreboding. It increasingly feels like we are in a time when anything with any potential to harm the Regime (such as web, bitcoin, etc) just gets defanged and absorbed into the system. In a few years, your web browser will probably transmit the details of your mandatory TPM chip to facebook, netflix, etc so they can uniquely identify all devices with complete precision and deny access to unapproved (user-controlled) computers. Microsoft already only allows users to install other OSes/bootloaders on new computers by their good grace. The keys are theirs, not yours. With bitcoin we already have KYC/AML ruthlessly enforced at every onramp/offramp. It is already very hard to transact between fiat and crypto without presenting some form of government-issued identification, and it will only get harder as time goes on, I don't see how you could reverse this process. And that culture shift is important because the people whose voices are most dominant within the "crypto sphere" today don't seem to give a shit, really. The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. I desperately want to believe that it still survives and I'm just not seeing it somehow. But I simply can't.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
TeMPOraL 5y ago
> The crypto people we have now seem to lack the deep, fundamental commitment to human freedom, privacy, and security that was the animating force behind the creation of bitcoin. It's probably because the few remaining crypto people, in the space dominated mostly by scammers, realized that crypto anarchy is something that's fun to read about in a sci-fi novel, not something you actually want to live in.