5 ms·

There are groups of people in this country in control of our most fundamental institutions with values that are irreconcilable with mine. I don't even know how

There are groups of people in this country in control of our most fundamental institutions with values that are irreconcilable with mine. I don't even know how to form a sensible argument with the idea that objectivity is not a desirable goal, that for a student to excel at mathematics is socially damaging, doing net harm by psychic trauma to the other students, that right and wrong answers to equations are subjective. We're not operating from the same set of values, and I don't understand theirs well enough to steel-man them. I can't imagine a compromise that I could reach with a teacher who believes the above that would make it less than parental malpractice to put my child in their classroom.

endominus 5y ago
I have known an elementary school teacher for a few years now, and we occasionally have cause to discuss matters like this one. It has crystallized my determination that my children, should they ever exist, will be homeschooled. As much as I would like to believe that these beliefs are only held by a few "true believers" in unfortunately high positions, I fear that the reality on the ground is much worse. My acquaintance genuinely and fully believes... well, basically anything fêted in the social proof of equality and justice. Even if the actual proven results of such beliefs and policies directly harms the populations they claim to help. It is strange; if one were to imagine a white supremacist or similar figure in charge of education, and they tried to push forward a similar proposal to ensure that the disadvantaged were never taught true mathematics, they would be tarred and feathered. But by cloaking the initiative in the language of justice, people approve. I've accepted for a while that people are not generally rational. But it's hard to accept the further realization that - and this is shakier ground, though it tracks with what I've noticed recently - many people don't seem to actually have beliefs. They have some vague set of heuristics that they use to respond to the world. Should evidence contradict their feelings or cause them to feel bad, they will deflect, dismiss, denigrate, and deny until anyone intruding on their personal reality simply gives up. Anything to avoid updating their priors. And I mean that in the least charitable way possible; this acquaintance of mine has refused to accept that there is a difference in importance or even kind between feelings and facts. The knowledge that someone like this is an active teacher is horrifying.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > My acquaintance genuinely and fully believes.. That's...not a firm basis for the broad general conclusions you ret upon it.
  - endominus 5y ago
    No, but like I said, those conclusions are based on other observations and information I've gathered. I merely spoke about them because they are the most relevant to this article and discussion. If they were the only example I could think of, I would dismiss my conversations with them as extraordinary. Instead, I see them as explanations for a pattern I've noticed elsewhere.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  > many people don't seem to actually have beliefs. They have some vague set of heuristics that they use to respond to the world You're right, from what I've understood. Instead, the humans are first and foremost social animals. Staying friends with the others, is what's important to them -- and one of their main heuristics, is, what do my friends (the others in the tribe) think? And to copy those opinions. > Anything to avoid updating their priors Changing ones believes, can abandoning one's friends? And historically (hunter gatherer tribes), that could mean isolation and extinction
ikura 5y ago
I'm having a hard time parsing your argument. Could you make this concrete, what are your values and what are the values that are irreconcilable with yours?

endominus 5y ago

I have known an elementary school teacher for a few years now, and we occasionally have cause to discuss matters like this one. It has crystallized my determination that my children, should they ever exist, will be homeschooled. As much as I would like to believe that these beliefs are only held by a few "true believers" in unfortunately high positions, I fear that the reality on the ground is much worse. My acquaintance genuinely and fully believes... well, basically anything fêted in the social proof of equality and justice. Even if the actual proven results of such beliefs and policies directly harms the populations they claim to help. It is strange; if one were to imagine a white supremacist or similar figure in charge of education, and they tried to push forward a similar proposal to ensure that the disadvantaged were never taught true mathematics, they would be tarred and feathered. But by cloaking the initiative in the language of justice, people approve. I've accepted for a while that people are not generally rational. But it's hard to accept the further realization that - and this is shakier ground, though it tracks with what I've noticed recently - many people don't seem to actually have beliefs. They have some vague set of heuristics that they use to respond to the world. Should evidence contradict their feelings or cause them to feel bad, they will deflect, dismiss, denigrate, and deny until anyone intruding on their personal reality simply gives up. Anything to avoid updating their priors. And I mean that in the least charitable way possible; this acquaintance of mine has refused to accept that there is a difference in importance or even kind between feelings and facts. The knowledge that someone like this is an active teacher is horrifying.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> My acquaintance genuinely and fully believes.. That's...not a firm basis for the broad general conclusions you ret upon it.
- endominus 5y ago
  No, but like I said, those conclusions are based on other observations and information I've gathered. I merely spoke about them because they are the most relevant to this article and discussion. If they were the only example I could think of, I would dismiss my conversations with them as extraordinary. Instead, I see them as explanations for a pattern I've noticed elsewhere.
cutemonster 5y ago
> many people don't seem to actually have beliefs. They have some vague set of heuristics that they use to respond to the world You're right, from what I've understood. Instead, the humans are first and foremost social animals. Staying friends with the others, is what's important to them -- and one of their main heuristics, is, what do my friends (the others in the tribe) think? And to copy those opinions. > Anything to avoid updating their priors Changing ones believes, can abandoning one's friends? And historically (hunter gatherer tribes), that could mean isolation and extinction

ikura 5y ago

I'm having a hard time parsing your argument. Could you make this concrete, what are your values and what are the values that are irreconcilable with yours?