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But in that example, Columbia made students big promises that it simply couldn’t deliver. It’s more like a deeply dishonest salesman than a hapless waiter who g

But in that example, Columbia made students big promises that it simply couldn’t deliver. It’s more like a deeply dishonest salesman than a hapless waiter who gets your order wrong. From James Stoteraux: > Many of the students in my class who didn’t turn their degrees into industry success were insanely talented, but Columbia traded on its reputation to sell them big dreams that it could never deliver. > During my 2nd year I suspected that the school wasn’t providing a launching pad to a career — most of the instructors were struggling to establish a career themselves & many weren’t even much more experienced than their students. A 4th yr student taught our cinematography class. > The brass ring the program dangled was that your film could be chosen for the annual festival where, in theory, big-time agents would see it and maybe sign you. But it was cutthroat to even be selected for the festival. And tuition didn’t cover the cost to make those films. … > I slowly begin to realize this IS the deal. He made it pretty clear if I wanted my degree, I needed to help him sell his tv pilot. Yep, the Chair of Columbia’s prestigious graduate film program tried to shake me down in order to jump-start his own stalled out career. The full thread is here: https://twitter.com/jstoteraux/status/1413326562821246978?s=21 https://twitter.com/jstoteraux/status/1413326562821246978?s=.... Students definitely deserve some blame for signing onto these expensive programs without doing any meaningful research. But university admins can be corrupt, too, and it’s likely that they used their reputation as “Columbia” to sell students something they knew was fake. Anyway, in response to the original point — I don’t think that’s a good example of entitlement since “scam” is a more appropriate word. I think they had stuff like “people being mean to waiters and flight attendants” in mind, which is a different sort of entitlement.

WalterBright 5y ago
> scam There is a legal concept called "due diligence" where a party to a contract is expected to take reasonable steps to know what they're doing. Googling "starting salaries for [my major]" is a very, very low bar for due diligence. The posts in this thread absolving the student from making any effort whatsoever at due diligence is illustrative of the point I was making.
- olyjohn 5y ago
  You expect a 15-17 year old to have the life experience to deal with this? They've been told exactly what to do their whole lives. Then they have been told how amazing and great and awesome they are, surely they won't be the ones coming out at that bottom wage.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Masters' degree students are 22-25. They don't go to college until 18, either, and even then they have FOUR years to figure out how to google starting salaries for their major. And if it doesn't look good, they have time to change majors, or at least stop digging deeper.
    - snovv_crash 5y ago
      Why not just allow people to declare bankruptcy on student loans, like all other loans? Then the onus would be on the banks to only lend to people who they thought could repay.
- dundarious 5y ago
  It doesn't apply for film school, but there are plenty of scam law schools that sell students on the prospect of massive future earnings my juking the stats. For example, it's common to say that some high percentage of past students are employed after graduation, but it's often an outright lie or the numbers are padded by the university giving low-wage sham jobs to most graduates. Of course, you _can_ find information and protect yourself from even these scams _most_ of the time, but I don't think the "just do your due diligence" argument holds enough of the time to dismiss the general argument being made, even if it applies to specific cases.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    If you can show me that simple google searches won't show reasonably correct information, that would be a good point. Besides, it seems weird that the senior class would never notice that the class that graduated just ahead of them is working at the car wash?

WalterBright 5y ago

> scam There is a legal concept called "due diligence" where a party to a contract is expected to take reasonable steps to know what they're doing. Googling "starting salaries for [my major]" is a very, very low bar for due diligence. The posts in this thread absolving the student from making any effort whatsoever at due diligence is illustrative of the point I was making.

olyjohn 5y ago
You expect a 15-17 year old to have the life experience to deal with this? They've been told exactly what to do their whole lives. Then they have been told how amazing and great and awesome they are, surely they won't be the ones coming out at that bottom wage.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Masters' degree students are 22-25. They don't go to college until 18, either, and even then they have FOUR years to figure out how to google starting salaries for their major. And if it doesn't look good, they have time to change majors, or at least stop digging deeper.
  - snovv_crash 5y ago
    Why not just allow people to declare bankruptcy on student loans, like all other loans? Then the onus would be on the banks to only lend to people who they thought could repay.
dundarious 5y ago
It doesn't apply for film school, but there are plenty of scam law schools that sell students on the prospect of massive future earnings my juking the stats. For example, it's common to say that some high percentage of past students are employed after graduation, but it's often an outright lie or the numbers are padded by the university giving low-wage sham jobs to most graduates. Of course, you _can_ find information and protect yourself from even these scams _most_ of the time, but I don't think the "just do your due diligence" argument holds enough of the time to dismiss the general argument being made, even if it applies to specific cases.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  If you can show me that simple google searches won't show reasonably correct information, that would be a good point. Besides, it seems weird that the senior class would never notice that the class that graduated just ahead of them is working at the car wash?