5 ms·

I definitely feel bad for the guy, and I hope he got/gets the full help he needs. That having been said, I think there's something about meditation traditions

I definitely feel bad for the guy, and I hope he got/gets the full help he needs. That having been said, I think there's something about meditation traditions that come from and are part of monastic traditions vs. meditation techniques that have been removed from their monastic roots. Basically, he was meditating at monk-like levels, and if he were actually in a monastery, he would probably have gotten help at some point beforehand. Maybe he was neglecting part of his health, or emphasizing one technique over another without being fully-rounded in his approach, or a number of other similar things that would have been caught by a community/teacher in a monastery. They literally have hundreds of years worth of meditation troubleshooting under their belts, though some of it is codified in ways that directly intertwine with religious beliefs/practices. But when you try to remove the practice from the culture surrounding it, there's a danger that you left behind some important pieces. I find it kind of scary that he mentions there are recovery groups and such, especially for meditation teachers. I mean, it's awesome that they're supporting each other and recovering, but this seems like a red flag that maybe the a-religious form of meditation as it's being taught and marketed right now needs to go back to the source and figure out what monks are doing differently, or, even better, make sure they immerse themselves deeper into the source cultures to be able to troubleshoot adequately. I guess it's like eating an olympic athlete's daily meal while ignoring the rest of their training regimen as "religious superstition" and getting drastically different results and being surprised.

jbgt 5y ago
Indeed, in Theravadin Buddhism the Buddha is said to have taught monks and laypeople skillfully, to their appropriate level. The Anapanasati Sutta, which is about Englightement through mindfulness of the breath, is cited by many teachers as "the shortcut to liberation". But the target audience of the discourse was an assembly of the most developed monks to give them the final tweak. For laypeople, in for example the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha teaches simple things on how to develop Morality and Confidence, which are with Right Understanding the starting points of the Path. I am always amazed at the simplicity and clarity of the teachings. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.th...
treebot 5y ago
> Basically, he was meditating at monk-like levels, and if he were actually in a monastery, he would probably have gotten help at some point beforehand. This is spot on. It seems to me like the author took meditation and removed it from it's cultural, historical and spiritual context. In Buddhism, the community of other practicioners is extremely important, as well as the teacher, and it seemed like the author didn't have those. Meditating for 10 minutes a day on your own is fine, but meditating for hours a day and going on week long retreats without a proper teacher or community does seem like opening up the door for things to go wrong or get too intense or for one to become confused or lost. The red flags should have been when the author began convulsing or disassociating or feeling bad. I think the warning is not about the ill effects of meditation, but rather the ill effects of practicing meditation deeply without the proper grounding in tradition, spirituality and community. To be fair, it's not really the author's fault that he removed meditation from it's proper context. All of the workshops he was going to did that as well. You go, do 1-2 weeks of really intense meditation, and then leave. You might never see those teachers again, or at least not for a while. It's on you to integrate your experience, which can be very difficult. I hate to invalidate this author's experience, but I really think it was that the author was not doing it right. It's okay to say this. If you start deadlifting every day for 30 days, and then blow your back out, and then try to say there are negative effects of deadlifting, the proper response would be "you're not doing it right." Because that would be the truth. Again, it's not totally his fault for not doing it right, as all these retreats seemed to enable not doing it right. I think he should spread the word about what happened, but it shouldn't be "meditation has some bad side effects" but rather "meditation can have some bad side effects when not done correctly. This is how to do it correctly." The article doesn't really present much of any framework for understanding how and when the bad side effects occur, and a solution for avoiding them. Which is why it's getting a lot of pushback I think. The article also has a really bad title: "When Buddhism Goes Bad". The article hardly talks about Buddhism. Things like the four noble truths, the eightfold path and other important Buddhist concepts are not mentioned at all. Meditation is not the same as Buddhism. In fact, it seems like his mediation practice was actually missing true Buddhism, and that might be how this whole thing occurred. Regardless, the only thing that went wrong here was meditation practice, not Buddhism. Props to the author for sharing, and I hope everything goes well for him, but I have to push back on the way he's trying to communicate this warning.
denton-scratch 5y ago
> recovery groups and such, especially for meditation teachers Some meditation teachers will fuck you up. Especially if you're a woman (most teachers are men), and especially if you're involved in tantra. Choosing a good teacher is critical, and very, very difficult. Trungpa was a superb teacher. But even he left a trail of damaged students in his wake (and not just women).

jbgt 5y ago

Indeed, in Theravadin Buddhism the Buddha is said to have taught monks and laypeople skillfully, to their appropriate level. The Anapanasati Sutta, which is about Englightement through mindfulness of the breath, is cited by many teachers as "the shortcut to liberation". But the target audience of the discourse was an assembly of the most developed monks to give them the final tweak. For laypeople, in for example the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha teaches simple things on how to develop Morality and Confidence, which are with Right Understanding the starting points of the Path. I am always amazed at the simplicity and clarity of the teachings. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.th...

treebot 5y ago

> Basically, he was meditating at monk-like levels, and if he were actually in a monastery, he would probably have gotten help at some point beforehand. This is spot on. It seems to me like the author took meditation and removed it from it's cultural, historical and spiritual context. In Buddhism, the community of other practicioners is extremely important, as well as the teacher, and it seemed like the author didn't have those. Meditating for 10 minutes a day on your own is fine, but meditating for hours a day and going on week long retreats without a proper teacher or community does seem like opening up the door for things to go wrong or get too intense or for one to become confused or lost. The red flags should have been when the author began convulsing or disassociating or feeling bad. I think the warning is not about the ill effects of meditation, but rather the ill effects of practicing meditation deeply without the proper grounding in tradition, spirituality and community. To be fair, it's not really the author's fault that he removed meditation from it's proper context. All of the workshops he was going to did that as well. You go, do 1-2 weeks of really intense meditation, and then leave. You might never see those teachers again, or at least not for a while. It's on you to integrate your experience, which can be very difficult. I hate to invalidate this author's experience, but I really think it was that the author was not doing it right. It's okay to say this. If you start deadlifting every day for 30 days, and then blow your back out, and then try to say there are negative effects of deadlifting, the proper response would be "you're not doing it right." Because that would be the truth. Again, it's not totally his fault for not doing it right, as all these retreats seemed to enable not doing it right. I think he should spread the word about what happened, but it shouldn't be "meditation has some bad side effects" but rather "meditation can have some bad side effects when not done correctly. This is how to do it correctly." The article doesn't really present much of any framework for understanding how and when the bad side effects occur, and a solution for avoiding them. Which is why it's getting a lot of pushback I think. The article also has a really bad title: "When Buddhism Goes Bad". The article hardly talks about Buddhism. Things like the four noble truths, the eightfold path and other important Buddhist concepts are not mentioned at all. Meditation is not the same as Buddhism. In fact, it seems like his mediation practice was actually missing true Buddhism, and that might be how this whole thing occurred. Regardless, the only thing that went wrong here was meditation practice, not Buddhism. Props to the author for sharing, and I hope everything goes well for him, but I have to push back on the way he's trying to communicate this warning.

denton-scratch 5y ago

> recovery groups and such, especially for meditation teachers Some meditation teachers will fuck you up. Especially if you're a woman (most teachers are men), and especially if you're involved in tantra. Choosing a good teacher is critical, and very, very difficult. Trungpa was a superb teacher. But even he left a trail of damaged students in his wake (and not just women).