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> The best option that should be on this list is to not eat any fish at all. Your logic fails for the following reasons: - not all fish are from the ocean -

> The best option that should be on this list is to not eat any fish at all. Your logic fails for the following reasons: - not all fish are from the ocean - not all species of fish are in fact overfished. There is no Sardine crisis. - Fish consumption is linked to increased IQ including in babies and children - Piscetarians have lower rates of heart disease than both vegans and occasional meat eaters - Promoting abstinence over harm reduction is generally a very silly and inefficient way to do things

yequalsx 15y ago
The person you responded to stated a belief that environmental considerations were the most important. The website that started these conversations has listed only ocean fish. Three of the five points you listed have nothing to do with the environment. Your statement about jeremymims logic is out of place. There are negative environmental impacts from ocean fish farms. I don't enough about non-ocean fish farms to comment on the environmental impacts of non-ocean fish farms though.
- davidhollander 15y ago
  > The website that started these conversations has listed only ocean fish http://whichfish.org/detail/catfish_us_farmed.html http://whichfish.org/detail/catfish_us_farmed.html http://whichfish.org/detail/crayfish_us.html http://whichfish.org/detail/crayfish_us.html http://whichfish.org/detail/trout_rainbow_trout.html http://whichfish.org/detail/trout_rainbow_trout.html http://whichfish.org/detail/tilapia_organic_or_closed_production.html http://whichfish.org/detail/tilapia_organic_or_closed_produc...
jeremymims 15y ago
Just for the record, fish consumption is linked to increased IQ in children because of the presence of Omega-3 Fatty Acids. Did you know though that both Flaxseed and Walnuts are both better, cheaper, and less environmentally damaging sources of Omega 3s than fish? Soybeans and Tofu are also pretty good sources. I'm cool with people consuming less, not merely abstaining from eating fish. But for those out there who are willing to (and there are many such people in the tech community), it really is the best option.
- davidhollander 15y ago
  > increased IQ in children because of the presence of Omega-3 Fatty Acids. Did you know though that both Flaxseed and Walnuts are both better The fatty acid in both Flaxseed and Walnuts you are referring to is alpha Linolic acid (ALA), whereas fish contains Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Out of these, only DHA is found in the brain. If DHA is not present in the diet, ALA can be converted into it, but only at an extremely low rate of efficiency [1] The only reliable vegan source of DHA I am aware of is certain types of algae. Additionally, by consuming extremely large quantities of nuts you will typically be overloading your copper to zinc ratio. [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1186%2F1476-511X-8-33 http://dx.doi.org/10.1186%2F1476-511X-8-33 "Are all n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids created equal?"
  - r0s 15y ago
    ALA is adequately converted to DHA, you didn't read the article you linked. Studies on rats are far from conclusive... but then why claim it's a human-health fact? "While there is discrepancy in ALA conversion rates in rats, these studies imply that dietary ALA could sufficiently supply the brain with DHA in the absence of exogenous DHA intake." This is consistent with all other research I've read, debunking this myth has become a hobby.
    - davidhollander 15y ago
      >you didn't read the article you linked Is this a joke? The article specifically states: >It is not enough to assume that ALA exerts effects through conversion to EPA and DHA, as the process is highly inefficient in humans. >with higher levels of ALA, no net rise in the level of circulating DHA occurred [2,3]. For example, feeding 10.7 g/d of ALA from flaxseed oil for 4 weeks failed to increase low DHA levels in breast milk of lactating women [4]. Some estimate that only 5–10% and 2–5% of ALA in healthy adults is converted to EPA and DHA, respectively [5], while others suggest that humans convert less than 5% of ALA to EPA or DHA [6]. The International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids (ISSFAL) recently released an official statement on the conversion efficiency of ALA to DHA. They concluded that the conversion of ALA to DHA is on the order of 1% in infants" Now let's examine the actual context of your quote: >"While there is discrepancy in ALA conversion rates in rats, these studies imply that dietary ALA could sufficiently supply the brain with DHA in the absence of exogenous DHA intake. It is important to note that the hepatic DHA synthesis rates observed for rats do not extend to humans [44]. The higher rates reflect a more efficient ALA elongation process in mice and rats" It specifically states that ALA->DHA is only a phenomena that occurs in rats and not humans. >Studies on rats are far from conclusive... but then why claim it's a human-health fact? Exactly my point. The human studies clearly state it is not reliably converted, and you are claiming it IS based on a rat study. The whole article I linked is based on the assumption it is NOT, and from the perspective that we should be examining the health benefits of ALA independently from the health benefits of fish oil.
Evgeny 15y ago
- Piscetarians have lower rates of heart disease than both vegans and occasional meat eaters Would you have a link for that? I'd add it to my collection for future diet discussions ...

yequalsx 15y ago

The person you responded to stated a belief that environmental considerations were the most important. The website that started these conversations has listed only ocean fish. Three of the five points you listed have nothing to do with the environment. Your statement about jeremymims logic is out of place. There are negative environmental impacts from ocean fish farms. I don't enough about non-ocean fish farms to comment on the environmental impacts of non-ocean fish farms though.

davidhollander 15y ago
> The website that started these conversations has listed only ocean fish http://whichfish.org/detail/catfish_us_farmed.html http://whichfish.org/detail/catfish_us_farmed.html http://whichfish.org/detail/crayfish_us.html http://whichfish.org/detail/crayfish_us.html http://whichfish.org/detail/trout_rainbow_trout.html http://whichfish.org/detail/trout_rainbow_trout.html http://whichfish.org/detail/tilapia_organic_or_closed_production.html http://whichfish.org/detail/tilapia_organic_or_closed_produc...

jeremymims 15y ago

Just for the record, fish consumption is linked to increased IQ in children because of the presence of Omega-3 Fatty Acids. Did you know though that both Flaxseed and Walnuts are both better, cheaper, and less environmentally damaging sources of Omega 3s than fish? Soybeans and Tofu are also pretty good sources. I'm cool with people consuming less, not merely abstaining from eating fish. But for those out there who are willing to (and there are many such people in the tech community), it really is the best option.

davidhollander 15y ago
> increased IQ in children because of the presence of Omega-3 Fatty Acids. Did you know though that both Flaxseed and Walnuts are both better The fatty acid in both Flaxseed and Walnuts you are referring to is alpha Linolic acid (ALA), whereas fish contains Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Out of these, only DHA is found in the brain. If DHA is not present in the diet, ALA can be converted into it, but only at an extremely low rate of efficiency [1] The only reliable vegan source of DHA I am aware of is certain types of algae. Additionally, by consuming extremely large quantities of nuts you will typically be overloading your copper to zinc ratio. [1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1186%2F1476-511X-8-33 http://dx.doi.org/10.1186%2F1476-511X-8-33 "Are all n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids created equal?"
- r0s 15y ago
  ALA is adequately converted to DHA, you didn't read the article you linked. Studies on rats are far from conclusive... but then why claim it's a human-health fact? "While there is discrepancy in ALA conversion rates in rats, these studies imply that dietary ALA could sufficiently supply the brain with DHA in the absence of exogenous DHA intake." This is consistent with all other research I've read, debunking this myth has become a hobby.
  - davidhollander 15y ago
    >you didn't read the article you linked Is this a joke? The article specifically states: >It is not enough to assume that ALA exerts effects through conversion to EPA and DHA, as the process is highly inefficient in humans. >with higher levels of ALA, no net rise in the level of circulating DHA occurred [2,3]. For example, feeding 10.7 g/d of ALA from flaxseed oil for 4 weeks failed to increase low DHA levels in breast milk of lactating women [4]. Some estimate that only 5–10% and 2–5% of ALA in healthy adults is converted to EPA and DHA, respectively [5], while others suggest that humans convert less than 5% of ALA to EPA or DHA [6]. The International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids (ISSFAL) recently released an official statement on the conversion efficiency of ALA to DHA. They concluded that the conversion of ALA to DHA is on the order of 1% in infants" Now let's examine the actual context of your quote: >"While there is discrepancy in ALA conversion rates in rats, these studies imply that dietary ALA could sufficiently supply the brain with DHA in the absence of exogenous DHA intake. It is important to note that the hepatic DHA synthesis rates observed for rats do not extend to humans [44]. The higher rates reflect a more efficient ALA elongation process in mice and rats" It specifically states that ALA->DHA is only a phenomena that occurs in rats and not humans. >Studies on rats are far from conclusive... but then why claim it's a human-health fact? Exactly my point. The human studies clearly state it is not reliably converted, and you are claiming it IS based on a rat study. The whole article I linked is based on the assumption it is NOT, and from the perspective that we should be examining the health benefits of ALA independently from the health benefits of fish oil.

Evgeny 15y ago

- Piscetarians have lower rates of heart disease than both vegans and occasional meat eaters Would you have a link for that? I'd add it to my collection for future diet discussions ...