4 ms·

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are

by krzyk 5y ago

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there) We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows. Your description looks more like one for Ukraine.

trasz 5y ago
Poland, welfare? :-D As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.
- krzyk 5y ago
  I have never worked using that "way", always the normal one. What you describe is used by firms that you can smell a mile away and don't even try to work there. I'm sure western Europe has similar companies that abuse employer rights.
  - trasz 5y ago
    In the field of software development, in Poland, this is the normal one. Also, note that this is not an abuse of employer's rights: that's precisely how "umowa o dzieło" is supposed to work. That's one example of prevalent neoliberalism.
    - krzyk 5y ago
      No one in my or my wifes family works in any other formnof emoloyment. And believe me they are not software developers. Yes, that's not a good proof, but you also did not present any sources.
      - trasz 5y ago
        It’s a bit hard to find something on this in English; if you can read Polish there’s plenty, eg https://biznes.interia.pl/praca/news-2030-proc-zatrudnionych-polakow-pracuje-na-umowach-czasowych,nId,4834652 https://biznes.interia.pl/praca/news-2030-proc-zatrudnionych...
- ptsneves 5y ago
  I am not a Pole, but live in Poland. Umowa o dzielo is quite pervasive but this is not a problem specific to Poland. Portugal, my home country has the same problems just the thing is a different name. The translation would be contractor. As a contractor you obviously have no rights, even so i think this is not the equivalent of US employment. In both countries the governments are trying to make it quite hard to have people with Umowa o dzielo, which are de-facto employees, but do not pay the appropriate taxes nor are corrrectly protected. The employers also have some reason to do this, the protections offered to the employees often make it a very big risk to hire somebody. Regardless, i believe the southern European countries got it much worse on that front. (Note, the Polish social security model was heavily influenced by the spanish one).
  - trasz 5y ago
    The difference is, in Poland "umowa o dzieło" isn't hard: if anything it's easier than normal employment, because you don't have to care about things like ZUS, and it's much cheaper (in terms of labour costs).
GekkePrutser 5y ago
I was in Romania primarily, many times. Have been to Poland a couple of times, but indeed I haven't seen this there. Sorry I was indeed extrapolating my experience in Romania to other countries. I assumed this happened in more countries. The plastic bags on windows were really common though. There was a really poor apartment block just beside the office and I always felt so guilty looking at it. From the well heated office with free coffee.

by krzyk 5y ago

trasz 5y ago

Poland, welfare? :-D As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

krzyk 5y ago
I have never worked using that "way", always the normal one. What you describe is used by firms that you can smell a mile away and don't even try to work there. I'm sure western Europe has similar companies that abuse employer rights.
- trasz 5y ago
  In the field of software development, in Poland, this is the normal one. Also, note that this is not an abuse of employer's rights: that's precisely how "umowa o dzieło" is supposed to work. That's one example of prevalent neoliberalism.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    No one in my or my wifes family works in any other formnof emoloyment. And believe me they are not software developers. Yes, that's not a good proof, but you also did not present any sources.
    - trasz 5y ago
      It’s a bit hard to find something on this in English; if you can read Polish there’s plenty, eg https://biznes.interia.pl/praca/news-2030-proc-zatrudnionych-polakow-pracuje-na-umowach-czasowych,nId,4834652 https://biznes.interia.pl/praca/news-2030-proc-zatrudnionych...
ptsneves 5y ago
I am not a Pole, but live in Poland. Umowa o dzielo is quite pervasive but this is not a problem specific to Poland. Portugal, my home country has the same problems just the thing is a different name. The translation would be contractor. As a contractor you obviously have no rights, even so i think this is not the equivalent of US employment. In both countries the governments are trying to make it quite hard to have people with Umowa o dzielo, which are de-facto employees, but do not pay the appropriate taxes nor are corrrectly protected. The employers also have some reason to do this, the protections offered to the employees often make it a very big risk to hire somebody. Regardless, i believe the southern European countries got it much worse on that front. (Note, the Polish social security model was heavily influenced by the spanish one).
- trasz 5y ago
  The difference is, in Poland "umowa o dzieło" isn't hard: if anything it's easier than normal employment, because you don't have to care about things like ZUS, and it's much cheaper (in terms of labour costs).

GekkePrutser 5y ago

I was in Romania primarily, many times. Have been to Poland a couple of times, but indeed I haven't seen this there. Sorry I was indeed extrapolating my experience in Romania to other countries. I assumed this happened in more countries. The plastic bags on windows were really common though. There was a really poor apartment block just beside the office and I always felt so guilty looking at it. From the well heated office with free coffee.