4 ms·

Two anecdote from different sides of the spectrum and you feel the one you disagree with is dangerous. Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is

Two anecdote from different sides of the spectrum and you feel the one you disagree with is dangerous. Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good.

Xylakant 5y ago
I feel it’s dangerous shaping conversations around individual anecdotes. I can tell you multiple positive anecdotes from the nursing side as well. Another friend of mine did long-term individual care for a disabled person and they got along extremely well, even traveling and such. That friend considered that his dream job. My father’s current partner volunteers at a hospice. She considers that an important part of her social work. There’s sex workers talking on public record about how liberating that was to them. What I’m saying is that deriving policy from anecdotes is dangerous.
- newsclues 5y ago
  You seemed to focus only only positive anecdotes, and then claim the negative ones are dangerous. Anyone can cherry pick data and present a few cases to support their world view.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    The point was that most people know that medical care at the RN and below levels is a shitshow of over-worked employees and understaffed facilities but if you pick anecdotes you can make it look like it's all unicorns and rainbows.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    You seem to misunderstand my point, despite me spelling it out. I don’t consider anecdotes dangerous. I consider basing policy discussions/decisions on anecdotes dangerous, because anecdotes cannot capture sufficient data. What policy should we derive from my anecdote about my friend who was deliberately targeted by the person they were caring for? Ban nurse work because it’s unhealthy? Ensure sufficient oversight so that clients get filtered? Ensure mediation for volunteers in that space? It’s impossible to derive a reasonable policy in the individual level.
    - newsclues 5y ago
      You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story.
      - Xylakant 5y ago
        > You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. My explicitly expressed view is “do not base any policy discussion on anecdotes, even the ones I cited.” Recounting the anecdotes only shows that I can pick sufficient anecdotes to support both sides of the argument and as such, basing any reasonable discussion on them is futile. > What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story. Exactly.
  - slowhand09 5y ago
    Just stopped to say reality-wise..."The plural of anecdote IS data".
jliptzin 5y ago
Lots of things are not “good” but we don’t make them illegal. Maybe it would be a lot better with legal protections afforded to workers in other industries.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good. Just because sex work sucks doesn't mean that you improve sex workers conditions by criminalizing their work while creating no legal opportunity. Criminalizing sex work just makes it suck more, and the reduces the best case for people for whom it was their best available option (whether or not it still is.)
- newsclues 5y ago
  This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? Because there are negative effects to individuals and societies at large. Sex work is not the only way for people to support themselves, anymore than professional killers who can also find other means of work.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Well, no, because most illegal trades aren’t illegal to protect people voluntarily engaging in one side or the other of the trade. > Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? No one argues for criminalization of murder to protect people who would be murderers if it was legal, but people do argue for criminalization of sex workers to protect people who would be sex workers from exploitive labor conditions (but tend to fail to have a narrative, when so doing, about how narrowing their options to include only options that they would, were legal sex work available, see as worse than legal sex work—including illegal sex work—does that.)

Two anecdote from different sides of the spectrum and you feel the one you disagree with is dangerous. Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good.

Xylakant 5y ago

I feel it’s dangerous shaping conversations around individual anecdotes. I can tell you multiple positive anecdotes from the nursing side as well. Another friend of mine did long-term individual care for a disabled person and they got along extremely well, even traveling and such. That friend considered that his dream job. My father’s current partner volunteers at a hospice. She considers that an important part of her social work. There’s sex workers talking on public record about how liberating that was to them. What I’m saying is that deriving policy from anecdotes is dangerous.

newsclues 5y ago
You seemed to focus only only positive anecdotes, and then claim the negative ones are dangerous. Anyone can cherry pick data and present a few cases to support their world view.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  The point was that most people know that medical care at the RN and below levels is a shitshow of over-worked employees and understaffed facilities but if you pick anecdotes you can make it look like it's all unicorns and rainbows.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  You seem to misunderstand my point, despite me spelling it out. I don’t consider anecdotes dangerous. I consider basing policy discussions/decisions on anecdotes dangerous, because anecdotes cannot capture sufficient data. What policy should we derive from my anecdote about my friend who was deliberately targeted by the person they were caring for? Ban nurse work because it’s unhealthy? Ensure sufficient oversight so that clients get filtered? Ensure mediation for volunteers in that space? It’s impossible to derive a reasonable policy in the individual level.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      > You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. My explicitly expressed view is “do not base any policy discussion on anecdotes, even the ones I cited.” Recounting the anecdotes only shows that I can pick sufficient anecdotes to support both sides of the argument and as such, basing any reasonable discussion on them is futile. > What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story. Exactly.
- slowhand09 5y ago
  Just stopped to say reality-wise..."The plural of anecdote IS data".

jliptzin 5y ago

Lots of things are not “good” but we don’t make them illegal. Maybe it would be a lot better with legal protections afforded to workers in other industries.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good. Just because sex work sucks doesn't mean that you improve sex workers conditions by criminalizing their work while creating no legal opportunity. Criminalizing sex work just makes it suck more, and the reduces the best case for people for whom it was their best available option (whether or not it still is.)

newsclues 5y ago
This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? Because there are negative effects to individuals and societies at large. Sex work is not the only way for people to support themselves, anymore than professional killers who can also find other means of work.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Well, no, because most illegal trades aren’t illegal to protect people voluntarily engaging in one side or the other of the trade. > Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? No one argues for criminalization of murder to protect people who would be murderers if it was legal, but people do argue for criminalization of sex workers to protect people who would be sex workers from exploitive labor conditions (but tend to fail to have a narrative, when so doing, about how narrowing their options to include only options that they would, were legal sex work available, see as worse than legal sex work—including illegal sex work—does that.)