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I’m sorry for your wife. However, I think it’s dangerous to shape the conversation about sex work solely around such cases. A person from my old flat share was

I’m sorry for your wife. However, I think it’s dangerous to shape the conversation about sex work solely around such cases. A person from my old flat share was a nurse on a terminal cancer ward for mostly children. > 90% of the patients died. They burned out within two years on the job. My aunt had to quit her job as hospital nurse because it physically ruined her body. She’s still suffering from that, decades later. A friend of mine spent his (then mandatory) social service caring for a quadriplegic person who deliberately tried to destroy my friend mentally, sort of their revenge for what happened to them. It took less than half a year for my friend to end up in stationary therapy, due to risk of self-harm and suicide. Yet, we don’t discuss these cases in terms of “being a nurse is a ruinous job. It needs to be banned.” - nor should we. Those cases need to be discussed in terms of “how can we ensure these jobs are safe and receive the support needed.” I believe that making sex work illegal and driving it back underground is not helping that conversation.

newsclues 5y ago
Two anecdote from different sides of the spectrum and you feel the one you disagree with is dangerous. Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  I feel it’s dangerous shaping conversations around individual anecdotes. I can tell you multiple positive anecdotes from the nursing side as well. Another friend of mine did long-term individual care for a disabled person and they got along extremely well, even traveling and such. That friend considered that his dream job. My father’s current partner volunteers at a hospice. She considers that an important part of her social work. There’s sex workers talking on public record about how liberating that was to them. What I’m saying is that deriving policy from anecdotes is dangerous.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    You seemed to focus only only positive anecdotes, and then claim the negative ones are dangerous. Anyone can cherry pick data and present a few cases to support their world view.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      The point was that most people know that medical care at the RN and below levels is a shitshow of over-worked employees and understaffed facilities but if you pick anecdotes you can make it look like it's all unicorns and rainbows.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      You seem to misunderstand my point, despite me spelling it out. I don’t consider anecdotes dangerous. I consider basing policy discussions/decisions on anecdotes dangerous, because anecdotes cannot capture sufficient data. What policy should we derive from my anecdote about my friend who was deliberately targeted by the person they were caring for? Ban nurse work because it’s unhealthy? Ensure sufficient oversight so that clients get filtered? Ensure mediation for volunteers in that space? It’s impossible to derive a reasonable policy in the individual level.
      - newsclues 5y ago
        You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story.
        Xylakant 5y ago
        > You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. My explicitly expressed view is “do not base any policy discussion on anecdotes, even the ones I cited.” Recounting the anecdotes only shows that I can pick sufficient anecdotes to support both sides of the argument and as such, basing any reasonable discussion on them is futile. > What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story. Exactly.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  Lots of things are not “good” but we don’t make them illegal. Maybe it would be a lot better with legal protections afforded to workers in other industries.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good. Just because sex work sucks doesn't mean that you improve sex workers conditions by criminalizing their work while creating no legal opportunity. Criminalizing sex work just makes it suck more, and the reduces the best case for people for whom it was their best available option (whether or not it still is.)
  - newsclues 5y ago
    This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? Because there are negative effects to individuals and societies at large. Sex work is not the only way for people to support themselves, anymore than professional killers who can also find other means of work.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Well, no, because most illegal trades aren’t illegal to protect people voluntarily engaging in one side or the other of the trade. > Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? No one argues for criminalization of murder to protect people who would be murderers if it was legal, but people do argue for criminalization of sex workers to protect people who would be sex workers from exploitive labor conditions (but tend to fail to have a narrative, when so doing, about how narrowing their options to include only options that they would, were legal sex work available, see as worse than legal sex work—including illegal sex work—does that.)
emptysongglass 5y ago
> I believe that making sex work illegal and driving it back underground is not helping that conversation. I never indicated either of these would be solutions. I don't believe elevating sex work to a pedestal in the cultural consciousness is right or ethical. That is primarily what I am taking issue with. It can be lucrative but the toll on young women, often very young women, can be great. It's a damaging profession both to its consumers and to its creators. Banning it will not stop it. What we need is to have a frank discussion about what it entails and stop the trend of fetishizing or glorifying it as a desirable career. It is by and large ugly and violent.
- toyg 5y ago
  > It's a damaging profession both to its consumers and to its creators With age and life experience, I'm actually finding it increadibly difficult to agree with this statement. Sex work might be damaging for many providers, that's for sure (although, as others mentioned, so are other professions deemed essential); but damaging for consumers, I don't know. If it were so bad, it wouldn't be "the oldest profession". (Male) society undoubtedly needs periodic release, and sex work is one of such valves.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I spent my early twenties in Buddhist monasteries. What I learned at the foot of these peaceful, shockingly kind monks was that the mind is all habits spun on the flywheel of action. "Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality." We have a choice every time a thought, a desire, a feeling comes to us. We can follow it, pursue it, foment it. Or we can see it, acknowledge it, and drop it. People will do what they want and never have I advocated we tell people they can't do with their bodies whatever they want to do with them. But we can encourage a wiser eye in our consumption.
  - oftwjul2021 5y ago
    > Sex work might be damaging for many providers, that's for sure (although, as others mentioned, so are other professions deemed essential); but damaging for consumers, I don't know. As Online sex work as increasingly adopted the 'influencer' mentality to it's marketing, I think it is damaging to consumers. Maybe you think things like NLP don't have an impact on you, but they certainly do on others. As other comments on this thread have mentioned many of the ads/content have become a lot more targeted.

newsclues 5y ago

Two anecdote from different sides of the spectrum and you feel the one you disagree with is dangerous. Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good.

Xylakant 5y ago
I feel it’s dangerous shaping conversations around individual anecdotes. I can tell you multiple positive anecdotes from the nursing side as well. Another friend of mine did long-term individual care for a disabled person and they got along extremely well, even traveling and such. That friend considered that his dream job. My father’s current partner volunteers at a hospice. She considers that an important part of her social work. There’s sex workers talking on public record about how liberating that was to them. What I’m saying is that deriving policy from anecdotes is dangerous.
- newsclues 5y ago
  You seemed to focus only only positive anecdotes, and then claim the negative ones are dangerous. Anyone can cherry pick data and present a few cases to support their world view.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    The point was that most people know that medical care at the RN and below levels is a shitshow of over-worked employees and understaffed facilities but if you pick anecdotes you can make it look like it's all unicorns and rainbows.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    You seem to misunderstand my point, despite me spelling it out. I don’t consider anecdotes dangerous. I consider basing policy discussions/decisions on anecdotes dangerous, because anecdotes cannot capture sufficient data. What policy should we derive from my anecdote about my friend who was deliberately targeted by the person they were caring for? Ban nurse work because it’s unhealthy? Ensure sufficient oversight so that clients get filtered? Ensure mediation for volunteers in that space? It’s impossible to derive a reasonable policy in the individual level.
    - newsclues 5y ago
      You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story.
      - Xylakant 5y ago
        > You denounce anecdotal evidence and then cite it, as evidence for your views. My explicitly expressed view is “do not base any policy discussion on anecdotes, even the ones I cited.” Recounting the anecdotes only shows that I can pick sufficient anecdotes to support both sides of the argument and as such, basing any reasonable discussion on them is futile. > What policy should we derive from your friends personal experience? None! Because we should consider all the data and not your friends story. Exactly.
jliptzin 5y ago
Lots of things are not “good” but we don’t make them illegal. Maybe it would be a lot better with legal protections afforded to workers in other industries.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Just because normal jobs suck, doesn’t mean sex work is good. Just because sex work sucks doesn't mean that you improve sex workers conditions by criminalizing their work while creating no legal opportunity. Criminalizing sex work just makes it suck more, and the reduces the best case for people for whom it was their best available option (whether or not it still is.)
- newsclues 5y ago
  This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? Because there are negative effects to individuals and societies at large. Sex work is not the only way for people to support themselves, anymore than professional killers who can also find other means of work.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > This logic could apply to any illegal trade. Well, no, because most illegal trades aren’t illegal to protect people voluntarily engaging in one side or the other of the trade. > Why do we make killers lives worse with criminalization of murder? No one argues for criminalization of murder to protect people who would be murderers if it was legal, but people do argue for criminalization of sex workers to protect people who would be sex workers from exploitive labor conditions (but tend to fail to have a narrative, when so doing, about how narrowing their options to include only options that they would, were legal sex work available, see as worse than legal sex work—including illegal sex work—does that.)

emptysongglass 5y ago

> I believe that making sex work illegal and driving it back underground is not helping that conversation. I never indicated either of these would be solutions. I don't believe elevating sex work to a pedestal in the cultural consciousness is right or ethical. That is primarily what I am taking issue with. It can be lucrative but the toll on young women, often very young women, can be great. It's a damaging profession both to its consumers and to its creators. Banning it will not stop it. What we need is to have a frank discussion about what it entails and stop the trend of fetishizing or glorifying it as a desirable career. It is by and large ugly and violent.

toyg 5y ago
> It's a damaging profession both to its consumers and to its creators With age and life experience, I'm actually finding it increadibly difficult to agree with this statement. Sex work might be damaging for many providers, that's for sure (although, as others mentioned, so are other professions deemed essential); but damaging for consumers, I don't know. If it were so bad, it wouldn't be "the oldest profession". (Male) society undoubtedly needs periodic release, and sex work is one of such valves.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I spent my early twenties in Buddhist monasteries. What I learned at the foot of these peaceful, shockingly kind monks was that the mind is all habits spun on the flywheel of action. "Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality." We have a choice every time a thought, a desire, a feeling comes to us. We can follow it, pursue it, foment it. Or we can see it, acknowledge it, and drop it. People will do what they want and never have I advocated we tell people they can't do with their bodies whatever they want to do with them. But we can encourage a wiser eye in our consumption.
- oftwjul2021 5y ago
  > Sex work might be damaging for many providers, that's for sure (although, as others mentioned, so are other professions deemed essential); but damaging for consumers, I don't know. As Online sex work as increasingly adopted the 'influencer' mentality to it's marketing, I think it is damaging to consumers. Maybe you think things like NLP don't have an impact on you, but they certainly do on others. As other comments on this thread have mentioned many of the ads/content have become a lot more targeted.