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> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations inv

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

tiborsaas 5y ago
While I wouldn't call if a fraud, but they skewed with the election system to bend it towards in their favour. They for example introduced monetary support for small parties in a way that made it really easy to commit fraud, which surprisingly did happen at a large scale. It also resulted in people voting for those fake parties and not on the opposition with real power. They won 2/3 power like this. "Belorussian-style regime", to name a few: - control of state media packed with non-stop propaganda - openly friendly towards dictators / other regimes - suppressive, openly anti-liberal laws
- ReptileMan 5y ago
  Since liberal means nothing lately, anti liberal is the same. I have seen quite authoritarian tendencies about stripping people from basic rights after corona epidemic began from self proclaimed liberals.
  - tiborsaas 5y ago
    Sure, liberal is an umbrella term. Instead, imagine a country where we let people live their life however they want, do whatever they want to their bodies and think for themselves. This is not Hungary and we are heading towards the opposite direction.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Which country in EU is like that? I don't know of any. And there are much worse counter-examples than Hungary.
    - ReptileMan 5y ago
      And after corona lockdowns, talking about stripping all kinds of rights from the unvaccinated which country in the world right now is moving in the right direction? Hungary is not worse than the rest.
- wildmanx 5y ago
  US style, to name a few: > - openly friendly towards dictators / other regimes Trump cuddling with Kim-Jong Un and being a good buddy of Putins. > - suppressive, openly anti-liberal laws US Republicans are working on overturning Roe v. Wade, opening the door to more anti-liberal laws. Heck, in some states, women have to drive hundreds of miles to the next abortion clinic and risk getting intimidated by big guys with guns on their way in. Cause freedom. > - control of state media packed with non-stop propaganda I give you that, the non-stop propaganda in the US is privatized, e.g. Fox News, Washington Post, OANN, MSNBC, etc. Still propaganda.
dessant 5y ago
People voting themselves right to the edge of a totalitarian regime does not make that criticism any less legitimate.
- jsbdk 5y ago
  For many people, any political change that is not a move towards an even more liberal view of the world is automatically authoritarianism.
  - dessant 5y ago
    I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.
    - jsbdk 5y ago
      "human rights" is a liberal construct.
      - dessant 5y ago
        I guess you will change your views about human rights when you and your family will be the ones being specifically targeted by your own government.
      - hyper_dynamics 5y ago
        No it's not.
    - Dma54rhs 5y ago
      Human rights are a human construct and constantly change over time.
      - huetius 5y ago
        If you deny any form of transcendence, which is the case in the positivist, technocratic culture of the West, then this is the inevitable conclusion.
mod50ack 5y ago
Fidesz did win the last election. Part of this has to do with a number of scandals from the previous Socialist government (before 2010), part of this has to do with the hybrid electoral system (half gerrymandered FPTF, half proportional party-list) and part of this has to do with horrendous organization of all non-Fidesz parties. Now all the major opposition parties have united into a single electoral slate for the next election. Primary elections are being held for the first time to determine the compositions of the electoral slate. One minor problem is that the coalition would be very incongruous. But hey, still gonna vote for them (personal opinion). But while it is not a dictatorship, it is, as Orbán himself puts it, an "illiberal democracy". And the government's attitudes and laws create a ton of problems. And that's not even getting into the corruption and so on...
poisonborz 5y ago
Sure they did. I also think Lukashenko would have also won most of his elections if they were democratic, losing maybe only the last one marginally. Same with the Chinese communist party. To no surprise - if your people sit on all levels of the government, if you control the media and the public discourse, if you persecute anyone having any chance against you, you win. This doesn't mean other countries need to support this. And voicing an opinion against these tactics isn't "meddling in national affairs" as these governments like to tout.
- f6v 5y ago
  This sort of implies people can’t think for themselves. By this logic, the liberal countries are only liberal because the media tells the people to be liberal. Maybe you’re right.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    Nope, because there are different media available, and one can watch/listen/read those. In Orban like states you loose that free access to all media and you are forced into the state one. For those that are not aware countries that were under former Soviet boots all have a state television, which is the default source of information for older people (they are used to it), whichever party wins the elections sets up this TV broadcast to their liking. All other TV broadcasters need to have a special privilege approved by the state - do you see what can happen here?
    - porkbrain 5y ago
      I'd like to stress the "_may happen_" in the parent's post. I'd argue that in Czech Republic the state TV (ČT) works well so far. One cannot filter out out biases from journalism completely, but in general the quality of production is a good indicator to me that they do have processes in place which try to address some biases. In my eyes on average ČT wins compared to the private TV stations in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Television#Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Television#Management
    - 5y ago
antman 5y ago
There are military and there are civilian dictatorships. Taking control of the legal system, legally removing oversight, silencing the media, bribing etc does constitute fair elections. Your definition of fairness might need to expand its scope.
eperfa 5y ago
It is true that Fidesz, his party, has won 2/3rds of the seats in the Parliament, though they only got 45.2% of the total votes. This victory was in part due to them significantly re-drawing the regions used during the elections to their favour, changing rules for voting from abroad (making it easier to vote from neighbouring regions where most of the people are traditionally their supporters, but more difficult from other parts of the world, where most of the population would like to see a change). It was also helped by using the state to fund and run their own campaign with virtually unlimited amount of money (they were the ruling party in the previous term as well), gradually taking control of all media outlets (especially traditional print and TV ones, further strengthening their base in more rural areas), etc. Since then they have taken even more control of the media, diverted the majority of EU and state funds to loyal businessmen (a regular gas-fitter became the wealthiest man in the country in a few short years, believed to be the straw man of Orban himself), filled all major positions with their own people (including most recently the high court), created laws directly against the civil society and LMBTQ+ people, stopped most of the funding to towns that have elected politicians from the opposition, taken control of all universities and actively worked on getting rid of CEU (one of the best, independent university, which was criticised due to being funded by George Soros), signed secret business deals for enormous amounts of money with Chinese and Russian interests that will almost certainly never be beneficial for Hungary, etc. The comparison to Belarus is not correct in the sense that in Hungary violence has not been used (fortunately), but apart from that the governing party has done everything else they can to keep their power and crush everyone else.
- Nesze 5y ago
  > they only got 45.2% of the total votes Think the figures are somewhat higher: Party/FPTP: 49.27%/47.89% [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_e...
  - ganafagol 5y ago
    That's more than what Trump got in 2016. Still nobody compared the U.S. to Belarus.
praptak 5y ago
"Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively" AFAIK Lukashenko also has some no-fraud elections under his belt. You don't need an election fraud to go from a democracy to a dictatorship.
chx 5y ago
> Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). You are partially right: they won the elections conclusively. However, their supermajority was due to fraud. I am not even sure whether that can even be called "allegations" at this point, it's more like "everyone knew on election night already but what could you do". I think the best description of the events in English can be found at https://www.unhackdemocracy.eu/en/investigation https://www.unhackdemocracy.eu/en/investigation Summary: > Unhack Democracy’s year-long investigation into the April 2018 Hungarian Parliamentary elections indicates Prime Minister Viktor Orbán secured his one-seat supermajority thanks to a combination of outright fraud, gerrymandering and by engineering the electoral system. > Our findings reveal extensive polling station irregularities including forged voter logs and intimidation of ballot counters; a suspicious ticket splitting rate twice as likely in areas where there we no opposition delegates; electoral clientelism involving large-scale vote buying and intimidation of voters, the unlawful transportation of voters from Ukraine, Romania and Serbia; missing absentee ballots; and a mysterious failure of national election software. And the full version goes into "fake" parties and more.
alkonaut 5y ago
Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. Merely getting 51% of votes by disregarding those values is neither acceptable nor democratic. And the EU can’t stand for it just like it could t stand for a regime that takes power through violence. “Belorussian style regime” I assume is in reference to freedom of press/expression/artists/minorities etc in the country.
- gattilorenz 5y ago
  > Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. As much as I would like this to be true, I don't think it is. In practice - and to a certain extent also in theory, if you at least add add some nuance - in every democratic country the majority has power to decide who's granted full rights and value, and who isn't (think of voting rights for inmates or immigrants, right to be elected, right to obtain a job etc.). Even when the constitution sets those rights "in stone", a vast majority has the legal right to change the constitution. Update: part of the nuance is that democracies won't technically change the value of a person, to use your term. But by removing their rights, the effects are hardly different.
  - ant6n 5y ago
    Modern democracies (i.e. the ones set up including the learnings from the Weimar Republic) should include minority protections and defenses of democratic institutions that can not be overridden by simple majorities.
chpatrick 5y ago
The last election they won fair and square was 2010. After that, one of their first acts was to modify the previously proportional electoral system to ensure that they get a supermajority in parliament despite winning 40%. Since then, they've had full control over the constitution and the law despite 60% of the country not voting for them, and all "debate" has been pointless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hungary#The_voting_system_after_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hungary#The_votin...
majgr 5y ago
If you only watch regime media, it is impossible to vote differently, only successes, no problems, no shady affairs, no nepotism. Opposition, on the other hand, is portrayed as the root of all evil.
Turms 5y ago
Sorry, but that is totally factually incorrect. I am a Hungarian citizen and there are many well known and worrisome circumstances about Fidesz's electoral victories: - The election system has been changed in a way that overcompensates the winner. Fidesz is supported by about 50% of the voting population, yet it has a 2/3-s supermajority which enables them to pass any law they wish without any resistance. - Fidesz has built up a MASSIVE database of the voting population over the years, basically they can tell the voting preferences for each home address. There is video evidence of this, I am not talking out of my ass. - Based on this database large scale gerrymandering took place in the past years. - The governing body overseeing the elections is run by long standing Fidesz cadres. Many polling districts especially in rural areas only had Fidesz-affiliated polling-clerks during the last election. - Thousands if not tens of thousands of Ukrainian citizens (many of whom have Hungarian ancestry, but many do not) have been registered in the Eastern part of the country with voting rights. They are eligible for pensions multiple times the amount they would receive from the Ukrainian government because of an old agreement made bw the Soviet Union and Hungary. In exchange they are voting for Fidesz. Again, this may sound like bullshit, but it is a documented fact. - Small cities are told that they won't get any EU funding from the government if they elect a non-Fidesz mayor. - There is a massive amount of very poor people dependent on government distributed "public work" in the countryside. It's basically modern day servitude. These people are also often threatened that if they vote the "wrong way" they will not get work. - Most of the relevant news outlets (TV, Radio, Newspapers, online media) are owned by Fidesz-frienly businesspeople and they are in 24-7 propaganda mode. I am talking about 1950-s style Stalinist propaganda, not some kind of "pro-government bias". There have been by now basically one TV station and a handful of small websites left that are not controlled by Fidesz. - And add to that that any opposition leader, any journalist critical towards Fidesz or any businessman who is not part of their circles can be monitored by these spy softwares and then you will understand what the term "hybrid regime" stands for. Yes there are elections every four years, but they are just for show.

tiborsaas 5y ago

While I wouldn't call if a fraud, but they skewed with the election system to bend it towards in their favour. They for example introduced monetary support for small parties in a way that made it really easy to commit fraud, which surprisingly did happen at a large scale. It also resulted in people voting for those fake parties and not on the opposition with real power. They won 2/3 power like this. "Belorussian-style regime", to name a few: - control of state media packed with non-stop propaganda - openly friendly towards dictators / other regimes - suppressive, openly anti-liberal laws

ReptileMan 5y ago
Since liberal means nothing lately, anti liberal is the same. I have seen quite authoritarian tendencies about stripping people from basic rights after corona epidemic began from self proclaimed liberals.
- tiborsaas 5y ago
  Sure, liberal is an umbrella term. Instead, imagine a country where we let people live their life however they want, do whatever they want to their bodies and think for themselves. This is not Hungary and we are heading towards the opposite direction.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Which country in EU is like that? I don't know of any. And there are much worse counter-examples than Hungary.
  - ReptileMan 5y ago
    And after corona lockdowns, talking about stripping all kinds of rights from the unvaccinated which country in the world right now is moving in the right direction? Hungary is not worse than the rest.
wildmanx 5y ago
US style, to name a few: > - openly friendly towards dictators / other regimes Trump cuddling with Kim-Jong Un and being a good buddy of Putins. > - suppressive, openly anti-liberal laws US Republicans are working on overturning Roe v. Wade, opening the door to more anti-liberal laws. Heck, in some states, women have to drive hundreds of miles to the next abortion clinic and risk getting intimidated by big guys with guns on their way in. Cause freedom. > - control of state media packed with non-stop propaganda I give you that, the non-stop propaganda in the US is privatized, e.g. Fox News, Washington Post, OANN, MSNBC, etc. Still propaganda.

dessant 5y ago

People voting themselves right to the edge of a totalitarian regime does not make that criticism any less legitimate.

jsbdk 5y ago
For many people, any political change that is not a move towards an even more liberal view of the world is automatically authoritarianism.
- dessant 5y ago
  I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.
  - jsbdk 5y ago
    "human rights" is a liberal construct.
    - dessant 5y ago
      I guess you will change your views about human rights when you and your family will be the ones being specifically targeted by your own government.
    - hyper_dynamics 5y ago
      No it's not.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Human rights are a human construct and constantly change over time.
    - huetius 5y ago
      If you deny any form of transcendence, which is the case in the positivist, technocratic culture of the West, then this is the inevitable conclusion.

mod50ack 5y ago

Fidesz did win the last election. Part of this has to do with a number of scandals from the previous Socialist government (before 2010), part of this has to do with the hybrid electoral system (half gerrymandered FPTF, half proportional party-list) and part of this has to do with horrendous organization of all non-Fidesz parties. Now all the major opposition parties have united into a single electoral slate for the next election. Primary elections are being held for the first time to determine the compositions of the electoral slate. One minor problem is that the coalition would be very incongruous. But hey, still gonna vote for them (personal opinion). But while it is not a dictatorship, it is, as Orbán himself puts it, an "illiberal democracy". And the government's attitudes and laws create a ton of problems. And that's not even getting into the corruption and so on...

poisonborz 5y ago

Sure they did. I also think Lukashenko would have also won most of his elections if they were democratic, losing maybe only the last one marginally. Same with the Chinese communist party. To no surprise - if your people sit on all levels of the government, if you control the media and the public discourse, if you persecute anyone having any chance against you, you win. This doesn't mean other countries need to support this. And voicing an opinion against these tactics isn't "meddling in national affairs" as these governments like to tout.

f6v 5y ago
This sort of implies people can’t think for themselves. By this logic, the liberal countries are only liberal because the media tells the people to be liberal. Maybe you’re right.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Nope, because there are different media available, and one can watch/listen/read those. In Orban like states you loose that free access to all media and you are forced into the state one. For those that are not aware countries that were under former Soviet boots all have a state television, which is the default source of information for older people (they are used to it), whichever party wins the elections sets up this TV broadcast to their liking. All other TV broadcasters need to have a special privilege approved by the state - do you see what can happen here?
  - porkbrain 5y ago
    I'd like to stress the "_may happen_" in the parent's post. I'd argue that in Czech Republic the state TV (ČT) works well so far. One cannot filter out out biases from journalism completely, but in general the quality of production is a good indicator to me that they do have processes in place which try to address some biases. In my eyes on average ČT wins compared to the private TV stations in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Television#Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Television#Management
  - 5y ago

antman 5y ago

There are military and there are civilian dictatorships. Taking control of the legal system, legally removing oversight, silencing the media, bribing etc does constitute fair elections. Your definition of fairness might need to expand its scope.

eperfa 5y ago

It is true that Fidesz, his party, has won 2/3rds of the seats in the Parliament, though they only got 45.2% of the total votes. This victory was in part due to them significantly re-drawing the regions used during the elections to their favour, changing rules for voting from abroad (making it easier to vote from neighbouring regions where most of the people are traditionally their supporters, but more difficult from other parts of the world, where most of the population would like to see a change). It was also helped by using the state to fund and run their own campaign with virtually unlimited amount of money (they were the ruling party in the previous term as well), gradually taking control of all media outlets (especially traditional print and TV ones, further strengthening their base in more rural areas), etc. Since then they have taken even more control of the media, diverted the majority of EU and state funds to loyal businessmen (a regular gas-fitter became the wealthiest man in the country in a few short years, believed to be the straw man of Orban himself), filled all major positions with their own people (including most recently the high court), created laws directly against the civil society and LMBTQ+ people, stopped most of the funding to towns that have elected politicians from the opposition, taken control of all universities and actively worked on getting rid of CEU (one of the best, independent university, which was criticised due to being funded by George Soros), signed secret business deals for enormous amounts of money with Chinese and Russian interests that will almost certainly never be beneficial for Hungary, etc. The comparison to Belarus is not correct in the sense that in Hungary violence has not been used (fortunately), but apart from that the governing party has done everything else they can to keep their power and crush everyone else.

Nesze 5y ago
> they only got 45.2% of the total votes Think the figures are somewhat higher: Party/FPTP: 49.27%/47.89% [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_e...
- ganafagol 5y ago
  That's more than what Trump got in 2016. Still nobody compared the U.S. to Belarus.

praptak 5y ago

"Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively" AFAIK Lukashenko also has some no-fraud elections under his belt. You don't need an election fraud to go from a democracy to a dictatorship.

chx 5y ago

> Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). You are partially right: they won the elections conclusively. However, their supermajority was due to fraud. I am not even sure whether that can even be called "allegations" at this point, it's more like "everyone knew on election night already but what could you do". I think the best description of the events in English can be found at https://www.unhackdemocracy.eu/en/investigation https://www.unhackdemocracy.eu/en/investigation Summary: > Unhack Democracy’s year-long investigation into the April 2018 Hungarian Parliamentary elections indicates Prime Minister Viktor Orbán secured his one-seat supermajority thanks to a combination of outright fraud, gerrymandering and by engineering the electoral system. > Our findings reveal extensive polling station irregularities including forged voter logs and intimidation of ballot counters; a suspicious ticket splitting rate twice as likely in areas where there we no opposition delegates; electoral clientelism involving large-scale vote buying and intimidation of voters, the unlawful transportation of voters from Ukraine, Romania and Serbia; missing absentee ballots; and a mysterious failure of national election software. And the full version goes into "fake" parties and more.

alkonaut 5y ago

Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. Merely getting 51% of votes by disregarding those values is neither acceptable nor democratic. And the EU can’t stand for it just like it could t stand for a regime that takes power through violence. “Belorussian style regime” I assume is in reference to freedom of press/expression/artists/minorities etc in the country.

gattilorenz 5y ago
> Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. As much as I would like this to be true, I don't think it is. In practice - and to a certain extent also in theory, if you at least add add some nuance - in every democratic country the majority has power to decide who's granted full rights and value, and who isn't (think of voting rights for inmates or immigrants, right to be elected, right to obtain a job etc.). Even when the constitution sets those rights "in stone", a vast majority has the legal right to change the constitution. Update: part of the nuance is that democracies won't technically change the value of a person, to use your term. But by removing their rights, the effects are hardly different.
- ant6n 5y ago
  Modern democracies (i.e. the ones set up including the learnings from the Weimar Republic) should include minority protections and defenses of democratic institutions that can not be overridden by simple majorities.

chpatrick 5y ago

The last election they won fair and square was 2010. After that, one of their first acts was to modify the previously proportional electoral system to ensure that they get a supermajority in parliament despite winning 40%. Since then, they've had full control over the constitution and the law despite 60% of the country not voting for them, and all "debate" has been pointless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hungary#The_voting_system_after_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hungary#The_votin...

majgr 5y ago

If you only watch regime media, it is impossible to vote differently, only successes, no problems, no shady affairs, no nepotism. Opposition, on the other hand, is portrayed as the root of all evil.

Turms 5y ago

Sorry, but that is totally factually incorrect. I am a Hungarian citizen and there are many well known and worrisome circumstances about Fidesz's electoral victories: - The election system has been changed in a way that overcompensates the winner. Fidesz is supported by about 50% of the voting population, yet it has a 2/3-s supermajority which enables them to pass any law they wish without any resistance. - Fidesz has built up a MASSIVE database of the voting population over the years, basically they can tell the voting preferences for each home address. There is video evidence of this, I am not talking out of my ass. - Based on this database large scale gerrymandering took place in the past years. - The governing body overseeing the elections is run by long standing Fidesz cadres. Many polling districts especially in rural areas only had Fidesz-affiliated polling-clerks during the last election. - Thousands if not tens of thousands of Ukrainian citizens (many of whom have Hungarian ancestry, but many do not) have been registered in the Eastern part of the country with voting rights. They are eligible for pensions multiple times the amount they would receive from the Ukrainian government because of an old agreement made bw the Soviet Union and Hungary. In exchange they are voting for Fidesz. Again, this may sound like bullshit, but it is a documented fact. - Small cities are told that they won't get any EU funding from the government if they elect a non-Fidesz mayor. - There is a massive amount of very poor people dependent on government distributed "public work" in the countryside. It's basically modern day servitude. These people are also often threatened that if they vote the "wrong way" they will not get work. - Most of the relevant news outlets (TV, Radio, Newspapers, online media) are owned by Fidesz-frienly businesspeople and they are in 24-7 propaganda mode. I am talking about 1950-s style Stalinist propaganda, not some kind of "pro-government bias". There have been by now basically one TV station and a handful of small websites left that are not controlled by Fidesz. - And add to that that any opposition leader, any journalist critical towards Fidesz or any businessman who is not part of their circles can be monitored by these spy softwares and then you will understand what the term "hybrid regime" stands for. Yes there are elections every four years, but they are just for show.