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>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from

>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ? If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more similar than EU member, languages were way closer and cultures were close as well) into a super state look up Yugoslavia.

blocked_again 5y ago
India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  By that logic India and Pakistan should also merge.
  - blocked_again 5y ago
    No your logic was it's not possible to have a country with so much diversity. I just showed a counter example.
    - reader_mode 5y ago
      I know very little about history of India or the culture, but I guarantee you that creating such entity would result in a civil war, demonstrated throughout European history.
      - blocked_again 5y ago
        Yeah. I also don't think it's probably a good idea for the EU to become a country. Countries have a lot more power, autonomy etc which states lack. I think the current system of EU is pretty good.
    - saiya-jin 5y ago
      You are comparing uncomparable, the population of India and EU are composed of very different people with different mindsets, expectations, opinions. Indians are generally much more docile (spent 6 months backpacking all around that place, it is really different in this regard). Also, comparing diversity is tricky - natives from Lappland have 0 in common with say Greek or Spaniards. Same would go for india's extremes, its rather impossible to say who is more different (personally I would still say Europe, since ways of life are almost the same if you look on India east, south, north, west, very similar cuisine etc... not so much in Europe). We have proven track of how it doesn't work here in Europe, no need to spin another set of wars to re-confirm it. Also, India sees quite a bit of domestic terrorism in its eastern parts exactly due to mindsets like yours. Not something we like to see here in Europe.
      - blocked_again 5y ago
        I never said EU should become a country. I just showed an example of a country with more population and more or less the same diversity which made it work. Obviously there are pros and cons with both approaches. And I think EU is better off the way it is now.
- Arun2009 5y ago
  The world's second largest standing army that can be called to crush insurgencies also helps.
- biscotte_ 5y ago
  India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controversy...). As someone said, you cant make the european omelette with nations hard boiled eggs. The mere facts that the euro bank notes has zero european symbol (because they couldnt find one) speaks for itself. So they put bridges and windows... India has Gandhi.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.
    - biscotte_ 5y ago
      True, but there have been many attempts to create Europe in the past, the 3rd Reich being one of them, Napoleon, and others before. Europhiles dont like that reminder but people at the time used the same rethoric of “building the great Europe”, “nations are too old etc”, I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”.
      - doctorbaum 5y ago
        > I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”. I would love to (interested in the topic)
        5y ago
- jollybean 5y ago
  Indian content has a very long history of common governance in the region and very few opportunities for clear cut delineation. A few, but not many.
maigret 5y ago
Or Switzerland or Belgium. I'd argue that, by now, there are more differences (cultural, economic, political...) between parts of the countries, like cities vs countryside, than between countries.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Isnt belgium unable to form a government for years? I don't know that Belgium is a diversity succeess story.
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    What's wrong with not having the government? It looks like Belgium functions quite well on an administrative level that it doesn't really need a "government".
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?
      - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
        Why would that be better if they split. Maybe they would have been swallowed by big neighbours and end up being a poor provinces. Same for Switzerland, I just can’t imagine they would have it better if they split to four national states. At least in those two cases national diversity worked great.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        It's up to the citizens to decide if it works out great, not up to you or I. So far they grudgingly continue with how things are but at least in Belgium it seems to me to be more about inertia and fear of change than anything else. You can check out this entertaining video (english subs) to see the current state of things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s
C19is20 5y ago
As a euperson i want it. And i know many more that would like the same. The bubble may be bigger than you think.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  I think it doesn't matter how big the bubble is - you saw what happened with Brexit (and it got validated by EU handling of COVID crisis), now imagine what happens when the only option to leave is succession/civil war. There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland). You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work. There are going to be a lot of crisis scenarios for EU in the next few decades, refugees being the looming one EU failed to reach a consensus on and botched previously (that helped radicalise parts of it like Hungary and further alienated UK). The pending post COVID inflation/economic shock could also storm the Euro zone, Greece is still devastated from the "bailouts" in the financial crisis.
  - johnnycerberus 5y ago
    What is wrong with the EU handling of COVID crisis? We have vaccinated more people than the US and there was no major breakout since summer 2020. In constrast with the UK where restrictions have been draconic.
    - reader_mode 5y ago
      EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever (overriding some countries who tried to acquire it individually and would have gotten it faster). Measures were not dictated by EU, each country decided it's own policy.
      - ginko 5y ago
        The only large countries that did better were the UK and US due to banning the export of vaccines. It's mainly the UK trying to spin this as a propaganda win after BREXIT.
mipsi 5y ago
I would not overemphasize the cultural differences between the Balkan people and call Yugoslavia a super state. The history of the people there is intertwined and national divisions are very much superimposed by ideologists.
guerrilla 5y ago
> Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. This is just dismissively asserrting your opinion as if it were fact. Where are your statistics on this?
3np 5y ago
> A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. And somehow me, a person from Denmark, has more cultural overlap with a hacker hipster from Mexico than most of my childhood classmates. And somehow I still coexist peacefully with my neighbors. The internet and global travel are breaking down the national cultural barriers (largely induced/imposed by mass media). Meanwhile, power imbalance and widening gaps in the social fabric are increasing issues globally, even in monocultures and regardless of immigrants. I think the points you raise are orthogonal. Except that you're most likely right that most people don't want this - because the illusion of the shared nation-culture and history has been so deeply imprinted in us by propaganda from the education system, the government, advertising, and media.
bwb 5y ago
It requires people to become more than what they are now, the same as when we didn't have nationalism and people made that leap "up"... People need to think beyond these tribes and up it a level. A random person from Bulgaria is very similar to a random person from Netherlands. I welcome the day that our tribe is Earth...
mihaaly 5y ago
I belive there is a serious confusion here concerning the terms of nation, country, culture. EU is made of countries and having countries merged does not mean that cultures has to be, actually hundrends of cultures and subcultures live together with other cultures in present countries, even as parts of nations, even inside cultures (subcultures). It is a basic human need and necessity to collaborate, everybody wants and needs that!! (except those living in a lone grumpy bubble) Those not doing it are not really viable: see Yugoslavia. : ) The EU - and in fact many many countries with hudreds of years of success - is made of and founded by former arch enemies btw....

blocked_again 5y ago

India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.

reader_mode 5y ago
By that logic India and Pakistan should also merge.
- blocked_again 5y ago
  No your logic was it's not possible to have a country with so much diversity. I just showed a counter example.
  - reader_mode 5y ago
    I know very little about history of India or the culture, but I guarantee you that creating such entity would result in a civil war, demonstrated throughout European history.
    - blocked_again 5y ago
      Yeah. I also don't think it's probably a good idea for the EU to become a country. Countries have a lot more power, autonomy etc which states lack. I think the current system of EU is pretty good.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    You are comparing uncomparable, the population of India and EU are composed of very different people with different mindsets, expectations, opinions. Indians are generally much more docile (spent 6 months backpacking all around that place, it is really different in this regard). Also, comparing diversity is tricky - natives from Lappland have 0 in common with say Greek or Spaniards. Same would go for india's extremes, its rather impossible to say who is more different (personally I would still say Europe, since ways of life are almost the same if you look on India east, south, north, west, very similar cuisine etc... not so much in Europe). We have proven track of how it doesn't work here in Europe, no need to spin another set of wars to re-confirm it. Also, India sees quite a bit of domestic terrorism in its eastern parts exactly due to mindsets like yours. Not something we like to see here in Europe.
    - blocked_again 5y ago
      I never said EU should become a country. I just showed an example of a country with more population and more or less the same diversity which made it work. Obviously there are pros and cons with both approaches. And I think EU is better off the way it is now.
Arun2009 5y ago
The world's second largest standing army that can be called to crush insurgencies also helps.
biscotte_ 5y ago
India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controversy...). As someone said, you cant make the european omelette with nations hard boiled eggs. The mere facts that the euro bank notes has zero european symbol (because they couldnt find one) speaks for itself. So they put bridges and windows... India has Gandhi.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.
  - biscotte_ 5y ago
    True, but there have been many attempts to create Europe in the past, the 3rd Reich being one of them, Napoleon, and others before. Europhiles dont like that reminder but people at the time used the same rethoric of “building the great Europe”, “nations are too old etc”, I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”.
    - doctorbaum 5y ago
      > I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”. I would love to (interested in the topic)
      - 5y ago
jollybean 5y ago
Indian content has a very long history of common governance in the region and very few opportunities for clear cut delineation. A few, but not many.

maigret 5y ago

Or Switzerland or Belgium. I'd argue that, by now, there are more differences (cultural, economic, political...) between parts of the countries, like cities vs countryside, than between countries.

joelbluminator 5y ago
Isnt belgium unable to form a government for years? I don't know that Belgium is a diversity succeess story.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  What's wrong with not having the government? It looks like Belgium functions quite well on an administrative level that it doesn't really need a "government".
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?
    - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
      Why would that be better if they split. Maybe they would have been swallowed by big neighbours and end up being a poor provinces. Same for Switzerland, I just can’t imagine they would have it better if they split to four national states. At least in those two cases national diversity worked great.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        It's up to the citizens to decide if it works out great, not up to you or I. So far they grudgingly continue with how things are but at least in Belgium it seems to me to be more about inertia and fear of change than anything else. You can check out this entertaining video (english subs) to see the current state of things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s

C19is20 5y ago

As a euperson i want it. And i know many more that would like the same. The bubble may be bigger than you think.

reader_mode 5y ago
I think it doesn't matter how big the bubble is - you saw what happened with Brexit (and it got validated by EU handling of COVID crisis), now imagine what happens when the only option to leave is succession/civil war. There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland). You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work. There are going to be a lot of crisis scenarios for EU in the next few decades, refugees being the looming one EU failed to reach a consensus on and botched previously (that helped radicalise parts of it like Hungary and further alienated UK). The pending post COVID inflation/economic shock could also storm the Euro zone, Greece is still devastated from the "bailouts" in the financial crisis.
- johnnycerberus 5y ago
  What is wrong with the EU handling of COVID crisis? We have vaccinated more people than the US and there was no major breakout since summer 2020. In constrast with the UK where restrictions have been draconic.
  - reader_mode 5y ago
    EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever (overriding some countries who tried to acquire it individually and would have gotten it faster). Measures were not dictated by EU, each country decided it's own policy.
    - ginko 5y ago
      The only large countries that did better were the UK and US due to banning the export of vaccines. It's mainly the UK trying to spin this as a propaganda win after BREXIT.

mipsi 5y ago

I would not overemphasize the cultural differences between the Balkan people and call Yugoslavia a super state. The history of the people there is intertwined and national divisions are very much superimposed by ideologists.

guerrilla 5y ago

> Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. This is just dismissively asserrting your opinion as if it were fact. Where are your statistics on this?

3np 5y ago

> A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. And somehow me, a person from Denmark, has more cultural overlap with a hacker hipster from Mexico than most of my childhood classmates. And somehow I still coexist peacefully with my neighbors. The internet and global travel are breaking down the national cultural barriers (largely induced/imposed by mass media). Meanwhile, power imbalance and widening gaps in the social fabric are increasing issues globally, even in monocultures and regardless of immigrants. I think the points you raise are orthogonal. Except that you're most likely right that most people don't want this - because the illusion of the shared nation-culture and history has been so deeply imprinted in us by propaganda from the education system, the government, advertising, and media.

bwb 5y ago

It requires people to become more than what they are now, the same as when we didn't have nationalism and people made that leap "up"... People need to think beyond these tribes and up it a level. A random person from Bulgaria is very similar to a random person from Netherlands. I welcome the day that our tribe is Earth...

mihaaly 5y ago

I belive there is a serious confusion here concerning the terms of nation, country, culture. EU is made of countries and having countries merged does not mean that cultures has to be, actually hundrends of cultures and subcultures live together with other cultures in present countries, even as parts of nations, even inside cultures (subcultures). It is a basic human need and necessity to collaborate, everybody wants and needs that!! (except those living in a lone grumpy bubble) Those not doing it are not really viable: see Yugoslavia. : ) The EU - and in fact many many countries with hudreds of years of success - is made of and founded by former arch enemies btw....