4 ms·

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

by jsbdk 5y ago

tobltobs 5y ago
The EU shouldn't be above that. But when Hungary doesn't like the rules of the EU it should leave. Of course it never will, as it is depending on the 3.000.000.000 Euro yearly support.
- upgrejd 5y ago
  Why would they leave when they can have the cake and eat it?
- ipatec 5y ago
  Those 3b are such a simplistic narrative. How much money do Western companies make in Hungary due to EU? The reality is that EU is mostly a neo-colonial project where the East Europe is depleted of resources (especially human capital) and treated as nothing more than a marketplace for W European products.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    What a load of bullcrap to be polite. I hear this from various eastern far right wing supporters quite a bit, and it isn't based on any facts, just some wishful thinking. Hungary is a net receiver of direct money subsidies. The fact is most of it is stolen by government-aligned forces within economy, this is a well-oiled machine in place for a long time. Western companies come to Hungary because its cheap force, despite being generally lower quality than west, many of which would be rather unemployed otherwise and probably migrate west or live miserable life on social support. The simple problem is, and that's not just Hungary but all countries in the east, there aren't enough big domestic companies that would be successful and employ people. Most failed long time ago, most really skilled people went west since life is simply so much better elsewhere. Why bother with corrupt semi-dictators, when you can thrive in fair and just society not so far. If you have kids/plan them, its a no brainer - all parents want the best for their kids, and giving them such a bad starting position in life in a fucked up corrupt primitive environment like eastern Europe is really just selfish acting at best. I know what I am talking about, I am coming from one of those places. Its not about how many good things are still there, but the amount of bad, and not just some top politics. Society is rotten on many, if not all levels. And there is no hope for change, not for the better for sure. Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. Its not a conspiracy, rather result of people wanting better lives for themselves and their children.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tester34 5y ago
      >Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. What makes you think that it's crappy place to live (e.g Poland)? except politics
      - trasz 5y ago
        Apart from economy, healthcare, pensions, schooling, and law enforcement? :-) Food's good, though.
        tester34 5y ago
        I do agree that higher edu institutions tend to be mehh unless you attend country's top, but law enforcement? what do you mean? fighting corruption?
        trasz 5y ago
        Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. As for law enforcement - it's just horribly ineffective. A trivial open and shut software piracy case can last a decade.
        tester34 5y ago
        >Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. It's hard to compare universities, unless you have attended both of them Innovation output != Quality of teaching Polish "computer-related" people are very often in top when it comes to e.g security (src: https://ctftime.org/ https://ctftime.org/) and top universities grads tends to have open doors to faang I've seen people from both of those groups speaking very good about the schools they attended
  - tobltobs 5y ago
    Hungary has a trade surplus with the EU.
    - ipatec 5y ago
      Of course. Check the largest exporters... yea... mainly German companies. That surplus ain't staying in Hungary
      - tobltobs 5y ago
        what are you trying to say? Hungary has a trade surplus against Germany.
        ipatec 5y ago
        where are the profits going? if a German company opens a factory in Hungary where it produces let's sau Automotive parts of course Hungary develops a trade surplus. they sell automotive parts to Germany. however the profits of the German HU subsidiary will all go back to Germany. that trade surplus means nothing.
        majgr 5y ago
        It means that GDP per capita rises, isn’t it good?
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    Hungary benefits much more of the EU. That's how it works in the short term. In the long term it's hoping to level up Hungary as a whole so we can have more trade with it. ( Speaking as a citizen of Belgium)
meibo 5y ago
Because they are an EU member, which comes with certain obligations and values. If you don't want that part of the deal, you shouldn't get the money either.
jonathanstrange 5y ago
Because any country that joins the EU agrees with the European Union Treaties in a legally binding way, and among other things these guarantee certain minimal democratic standards and human rights in the European Convention on Human Rights. The government of a country cannot just pick those parts of signed and ratified treaties they happen to like at one time or another and reap the benefits of membership without also fulfilling corresponding requirements and duties. They would have to leave the EU first, which they are free to do at any time. Of course, then they would also not get any membership benefits.
gznyirfa 5y ago
Actually, the laws of elections have been "fixed" by Orban as a very first step - and media completely taken over to stream 100% propaganda 24/7 as a second step - so the "support" behind Orban is just like behind any other modern dictatorship - that uses mass media manipulation and election system upgrades instead of tortures and prisons.
pestaa 5y ago
I'm not sure the premise is certain - in the last election his party received slightly less than half of the votes, however voting laws were altered in their own favor (managed to get super majority with <50% votes). My feeling is that even most of his voters don't like him, they just hate change more.
ceilingcorner 5y ago
This doesn’t matter if the elected winner is on the wrong team. See: the history of Egypt in the last 30 years.

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

by jsbdk 5y ago

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

tobltobs 5y ago

The EU shouldn't be above that. But when Hungary doesn't like the rules of the EU it should leave. Of course it never will, as it is depending on the 3.000.000.000 Euro yearly support.

upgrejd 5y ago
Why would they leave when they can have the cake and eat it?
ipatec 5y ago
Those 3b are such a simplistic narrative. How much money do Western companies make in Hungary due to EU? The reality is that EU is mostly a neo-colonial project where the East Europe is depleted of resources (especially human capital) and treated as nothing more than a marketplace for W European products.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  What a load of bullcrap to be polite. I hear this from various eastern far right wing supporters quite a bit, and it isn't based on any facts, just some wishful thinking. Hungary is a net receiver of direct money subsidies. The fact is most of it is stolen by government-aligned forces within economy, this is a well-oiled machine in place for a long time. Western companies come to Hungary because its cheap force, despite being generally lower quality than west, many of which would be rather unemployed otherwise and probably migrate west or live miserable life on social support. The simple problem is, and that's not just Hungary but all countries in the east, there aren't enough big domestic companies that would be successful and employ people. Most failed long time ago, most really skilled people went west since life is simply so much better elsewhere. Why bother with corrupt semi-dictators, when you can thrive in fair and just society not so far. If you have kids/plan them, its a no brainer - all parents want the best for their kids, and giving them such a bad starting position in life in a fucked up corrupt primitive environment like eastern Europe is really just selfish acting at best. I know what I am talking about, I am coming from one of those places. Its not about how many good things are still there, but the amount of bad, and not just some top politics. Society is rotten on many, if not all levels. And there is no hope for change, not for the better for sure. Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. Its not a conspiracy, rather result of people wanting better lives for themselves and their children.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tester34 5y ago
    >Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. What makes you think that it's crappy place to live (e.g Poland)? except politics
    - trasz 5y ago
      Apart from economy, healthcare, pensions, schooling, and law enforcement? :-) Food's good, though.
      - tester34 5y ago
        I do agree that higher edu institutions tend to be mehh unless you attend country's top, but law enforcement? what do you mean? fighting corruption?
        trasz 5y ago
        Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. As for law enforcement - it's just horribly ineffective. A trivial open and shut software piracy case can last a decade.
        tester34 5y ago
        >Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. It's hard to compare universities, unless you have attended both of them Innovation output != Quality of teaching Polish "computer-related" people are very often in top when it comes to e.g security (src: https://ctftime.org/ https://ctftime.org/) and top universities grads tends to have open doors to faang I've seen people from both of those groups speaking very good about the schools they attended
- tobltobs 5y ago
  Hungary has a trade surplus with the EU.
  - ipatec 5y ago
    Of course. Check the largest exporters... yea... mainly German companies. That surplus ain't staying in Hungary
    - tobltobs 5y ago
      what are you trying to say? Hungary has a trade surplus against Germany.
      - ipatec 5y ago
        where are the profits going? if a German company opens a factory in Hungary where it produces let's sau Automotive parts of course Hungary develops a trade surplus. they sell automotive parts to Germany. however the profits of the German HU subsidiary will all go back to Germany. that trade surplus means nothing.
        majgr 5y ago
        It means that GDP per capita rises, isn’t it good?
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  Hungary benefits much more of the EU. That's how it works in the short term. In the long term it's hoping to level up Hungary as a whole so we can have more trade with it. ( Speaking as a citizen of Belgium)

meibo 5y ago

Because they are an EU member, which comes with certain obligations and values. If you don't want that part of the deal, you shouldn't get the money either.

jonathanstrange 5y ago

Because any country that joins the EU agrees with the European Union Treaties in a legally binding way, and among other things these guarantee certain minimal democratic standards and human rights in the European Convention on Human Rights. The government of a country cannot just pick those parts of signed and ratified treaties they happen to like at one time or another and reap the benefits of membership without also fulfilling corresponding requirements and duties. They would have to leave the EU first, which they are free to do at any time. Of course, then they would also not get any membership benefits.

gznyirfa 5y ago

Actually, the laws of elections have been "fixed" by Orban as a very first step - and media completely taken over to stream 100% propaganda 24/7 as a second step - so the "support" behind Orban is just like behind any other modern dictatorship - that uses mass media manipulation and election system upgrades instead of tortures and prisons.

pestaa 5y ago

I'm not sure the premise is certain - in the last election his party received slightly less than half of the votes, however voting laws were altered in their own favor (managed to get super majority with <50% votes). My feeling is that even most of his voters don't like him, they just hate change more.

ceilingcorner 5y ago

This doesn’t matter if the elected winner is on the wrong team. See: the history of Egypt in the last 30 years.