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What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically", when they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle that is far more sustainable but also

What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically", when they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle that is far more sustainable but also practical? What's not practical with other BEV (Tesla, Hyundai Kona, ID.3, XPeng…) and that Toyota cannot improve (e.g by building a large network of charging stations)?

lovemenot 5y ago
I guess you answered your own question. Toyota doesn't appear to be interested in investing in a global chain of charging stations at this time. So from their perspective, a transition using existing infrastructure is practical.
dehrmann 5y ago
> they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle There's something weird about Ford making a mass-market electric F-150 before Toyota has a mass-market car. I know they're betting on hydrogen, but so many other companies are so far ahead with electric cars that it's a little worrying. The irony is this is the company that's most associated with hybrids.
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  From a engineering perspective, a purely electric vehicle is very simple, not a challenge and in engineering focused companies thus often considered "unworthy" of time and effort. Internally you will often hear terms like "golf-cart" and "toy" to describe them. They threaten the careers of whole departments and large established supply chains. This fear/anger often manifests as subtle internal sabotage to pure electric projects.
  - m-ee 5y ago
    No engineer that knows anything about batteries would call a battery pack/BMS design that meets automotive requirements simple.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
      Simple compared to ICE at their stage (NB: one has benefited from many centuries of man-hour work than the other). So, for their current level of efficiency, a BEV is simpler than an ICE also fewer people are able to produce the former for cheaper than the latter.
  - aaronbeekay 5y ago
    I work in product development at a major global automaker. I have never heard somebody call a BEV program “simple”, and if somebody is trying to sabotage BEV projects, they’re doing a very, very bad job of it.
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    I buy this to some extent, but it also reeks of hubris and discounts the value of marketing.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Toyota doesn't need to innovate or push limits. They built an incredibly deep moat of customer loyalty with high end customers. They can coast and just copy what works 5-10yr after the fact and still make money hand over fist (for now).
tomytosian 5y ago
yeah sure electric is sustainable. check the pictures of where your batteries rare minerals are harvested, check this too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0TtbWfmsaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0TtbWfmsaw
- maccard 5y ago
  Check the pictures of where your gas is cracked from crude oil, or of the farming methods used for your meat consumption, or the trees and forests cut down for banana, soy and palm oil plantations. Mass production never looks sustainable when framed in isolation, but in comparison to the alternative of fracking in tar sands and leaking methane by the galleon those mines aren't so bad. Your video also misses the point. Firstly, the mix of where that power comes from will depend on where you live. In places where the grid is dirty, of course it's going to be dirty. In other places there are ample amounts of renewables available at many times to be used. There's also the fact that changing the mix of the source of the power is much much easier than getting people to change vehicles. If solar becomes massively widespread on the grid, everyone with an EV immediately benefits from it. If a new ICE is produced then it's not until the old ones are out of circulation that the gains can happen
  - tomytosian 5y ago
    by your own logic then we should just skip electric and go full on hydrogen. thanks for confirming what I said
    - 542354234235 5y ago
      >by your own logic then we should just skip electric and go full on hydrogen This would be true only if hydrogen extraction, transport, storage, and use had no downsides or costs. Instead of playing childish "gotcha" games, why don't you actually articulate a cohesive point about why hydrogen is the best route forward.
      - tomytosian 5y ago
mike_d 5y ago
> What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically" For example, this vehicle will be part of Toyota's Welcab line that offers factory-installed conversions that makes driving accessible to people in wheelchairs. Including a device that will lift your wheelchair up and store it on top of the car while in motion (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_rearview_of_Toyota_AQUA_(NHP10)_Welcab_for_friend-matic_setting_vehicle.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_rearview_of_Toyo...). Tesla by comparison leaves this up to aftermarket accessory designers to figure out. They are truly thinking about the "how does everyone drive an electric vehicle" problem.
Gravityloss 5y ago
Price. If we disregard really short range EV:s, full EV:s are significantly more expensive than hybrids still.
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  Probably not if you factor in long term operating and maintenance costs.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    You can get a lot of gas for 10,000 dollars / euros. Engine maintenance is rare nowadays, oil change every now and then and maybe a belt change every 5 years. Both cars have the same tire, suspension, hydraulics, low voltage battery and body maintenance. In general, I think you still have to have periodic expensive maintenance to keep warranty for your electric car. In local prices, 10,000€ gets you about 7000 liters of gasoline, with 5 liters per 100 km you get 140,000 kilometers. The car would on average probably be ten years old at that point. Many Priuses do tend to be driven a lot and for a long time, with a quick search I can see a local one that has gone over half a million kilometers. So there is certainly potential for long term financially positive electric cars.
    - 542354234235 5y ago
      EVs and Plug-in Hybrids cost less to maintain than ICE vehicles. [1] Over 200k miles, ICE vehicles are about double the maintenance cost of EVs or Plug-in hybrids, and EVs are slightly more than Plug-in hybrids. -At 50k miles; EVs $600, Plug-in $1,050, ICE $1,400. -100k miles; EVs $2,000, Plug-ins $2,600, ICE $4,400. -200k miles; EVs $6,300, Plug-ins $5,900, ICE $12,300. EVs use about 30kWh to go 100 miles [2][3] and at the US national average for electricity [4], that would be about $6,250 to drive 200k miles. ICE vehicles vary but 35 mpg combined is pretty average [5] for compact cars. At the US national average for gasoline [6], that is $18,070 to drive 200k miles. Plug-in hybrids use about 29kWh to go 100 miles and about 48 mpg [7]. Just assuming 50/50 driving on gas or electric, that’s about $9,610 to drive 200k miles. So maintenance and fuel cost over 200k miles would be roughly: -EVs $12,552 -Plug-in Hybrids $15,510 -ICE $30,370

lovemenot 5y ago

I guess you answered your own question. Toyota doesn't appear to be interested in investing in a global chain of charging stations at this time. So from their perspective, a transition using existing infrastructure is practical.

dehrmann 5y ago

> they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle There's something weird about Ford making a mass-market electric F-150 before Toyota has a mass-market car. I know they're betting on hydrogen, but so many other companies are so far ahead with electric cars that it's a little worrying. The irony is this is the company that's most associated with hybrids.

PicassoCTs 5y ago
From a engineering perspective, a purely electric vehicle is very simple, not a challenge and in engineering focused companies thus often considered "unworthy" of time and effort. Internally you will often hear terms like "golf-cart" and "toy" to describe them. They threaten the careers of whole departments and large established supply chains. This fear/anger often manifests as subtle internal sabotage to pure electric projects.
- m-ee 5y ago
  No engineer that knows anything about batteries would call a battery pack/BMS design that meets automotive requirements simple.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    Simple compared to ICE at their stage (NB: one has benefited from many centuries of man-hour work than the other). So, for their current level of efficiency, a BEV is simpler than an ICE also fewer people are able to produce the former for cheaper than the latter.
- aaronbeekay 5y ago
  I work in product development at a major global automaker. I have never heard somebody call a BEV program “simple”, and if somebody is trying to sabotage BEV projects, they’re doing a very, very bad job of it.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  I buy this to some extent, but it also reeks of hubris and discounts the value of marketing.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Toyota doesn't need to innovate or push limits. They built an incredibly deep moat of customer loyalty with high end customers. They can coast and just copy what works 5-10yr after the fact and still make money hand over fist (for now).

tomytosian 5y ago

yeah sure electric is sustainable. check the pictures of where your batteries rare minerals are harvested, check this too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0TtbWfmsaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0TtbWfmsaw

maccard 5y ago
Check the pictures of where your gas is cracked from crude oil, or of the farming methods used for your meat consumption, or the trees and forests cut down for banana, soy and palm oil plantations. Mass production never looks sustainable when framed in isolation, but in comparison to the alternative of fracking in tar sands and leaking methane by the galleon those mines aren't so bad. Your video also misses the point. Firstly, the mix of where that power comes from will depend on where you live. In places where the grid is dirty, of course it's going to be dirty. In other places there are ample amounts of renewables available at many times to be used. There's also the fact that changing the mix of the source of the power is much much easier than getting people to change vehicles. If solar becomes massively widespread on the grid, everyone with an EV immediately benefits from it. If a new ICE is produced then it's not until the old ones are out of circulation that the gains can happen
- tomytosian 5y ago
  by your own logic then we should just skip electric and go full on hydrogen. thanks for confirming what I said
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    >by your own logic then we should just skip electric and go full on hydrogen This would be true only if hydrogen extraction, transport, storage, and use had no downsides or costs. Instead of playing childish "gotcha" games, why don't you actually articulate a cohesive point about why hydrogen is the best route forward.
    - tomytosian 5y ago

mike_d 5y ago

> What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically" For example, this vehicle will be part of Toyota's Welcab line that offers factory-installed conversions that makes driving accessible to people in wheelchairs. Including a device that will lift your wheelchair up and store it on top of the car while in motion (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_rearview_of_Toyota_AQUA_(NHP10)_Welcab_for_friend-matic_setting_vehicle.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_rearview_of_Toyo...). Tesla by comparison leaves this up to aftermarket accessory designers to figure out. They are truly thinking about the "how does everyone drive an electric vehicle" problem.

Gravityloss 5y ago

Price. If we disregard really short range EV:s, full EV:s are significantly more expensive than hybrids still.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago
Probably not if you factor in long term operating and maintenance costs.
- Gravityloss 5y ago
  You can get a lot of gas for 10,000 dollars / euros. Engine maintenance is rare nowadays, oil change every now and then and maybe a belt change every 5 years. Both cars have the same tire, suspension, hydraulics, low voltage battery and body maintenance. In general, I think you still have to have periodic expensive maintenance to keep warranty for your electric car. In local prices, 10,000€ gets you about 7000 liters of gasoline, with 5 liters per 100 km you get 140,000 kilometers. The car would on average probably be ten years old at that point. Many Priuses do tend to be driven a lot and for a long time, with a quick search I can see a local one that has gone over half a million kilometers. So there is certainly potential for long term financially positive electric cars.
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    EVs and Plug-in Hybrids cost less to maintain than ICE vehicles. [1] Over 200k miles, ICE vehicles are about double the maintenance cost of EVs or Plug-in hybrids, and EVs are slightly more than Plug-in hybrids. -At 50k miles; EVs $600, Plug-in $1,050, ICE $1,400. -100k miles; EVs $2,000, Plug-ins $2,600, ICE $4,400. -200k miles; EVs $6,300, Plug-ins $5,900, ICE $12,300. EVs use about 30kWh to go 100 miles [2][3] and at the US national average for electricity [4], that would be about $6,250 to drive 200k miles. ICE vehicles vary but 35 mpg combined is pretty average [5] for compact cars. At the US national average for gasoline [6], that is $18,070 to drive 200k miles. Plug-in hybrids use about 29kWh to go 100 miles and about 48 mpg [7]. Just assuming 50/50 driving on gas or electric, that’s about $9,610 to drive 200k miles. So maintenance and fuel cost over 200k miles would be roughly: -EVs $12,552 -Plug-in Hybrids $15,510 -ICE $30,370