5 ms·

While I agree with your concerns about licensing and copilot, this criticism doesn't seem particularly relevant to the article that was shared.

zaptheimpaler 5y ago
IMO any place where Copilot is mentioned is a relevant place to put this. I don't know how anyone working in software can just turn a blind eye to shit like this. Anyone who uses Copilot is implicitly endorsing this theft. We have a duty as practitioners in the industry to call it out when we see something wrong. If even devs aren't calling bullshit on Copilot, the media won't care, courts won't care, and it will be declared legal, and future theft will be normalized. Its ridiculous how we all see the big tech companies doing various kinds of terrible shit and then the next new shiny thing comes along and everyone forgets all about it? Are you goldfish? What will it take to get someone to actually give a shit and stop supporting this kind of product/behavior?
- fraktl 5y ago
  > Anyone who uses Copilot is implicitly endorsing this theft. Just like you're endorsing being sponsored and effectively stealing GitHub's bandwith? :) > We have a duty as practitioners in the industry to call it out when we see something wrong. It's wrong both ways. You accepted the service from GitHub, the free one where you get to open your account, host your code, share it etc. What exactly did you expect? To be served for free for your entire lifetime? Please, get off the moral highground. You ate the devil fruit, now you're whining about it. You should be smart enough to know that this kind of whining will get you nowhere. Just quit.
  - zaptheimpaler 5y ago
    Basically you are saying any product thats free should be able to break the law arbitrarily? Google can decide to post your all email online, your location history for all time, your photos and you would be ok with that because its free? The undoubtedly free DNS server you use can leak all your requests too? You're ok with that? Yes its free, no they did not tell me or ask for my permission before using the code in this way. Free does not give them the right to break existing laws and licenses. Its pretty simple.
    - mariusor 5y ago
      However you did give them permission to use your code by the fact that you acceded to their terms and conditions[1] when you created an account. IANAL, I don't know if this section would hold to scrutiny in a court of law, but I'm pretty sure this is what their legal team considers to cover them when it comes to training Copilot on code hosted with them. [1] https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-terms-of-service#4-license-grant-to-us https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-terms-o...
      - steerablesafe 5y ago
        People routinely share code on Github that is not owned or at least not fully owned by them, so they can't really rely only on the ToS.
        mariusor 5y ago
        See one paragraph above what I initially linked. They cover that also.
        steerablesafe 5y ago
        IANAL, but that is not my reading. They cover "Your Content" with the license grant, but not "any Content". The user still has the right to post "any Content" if they have the appropriate license to do so, but obviously they can't grant additional licenses to content the user doesn't own. In my understanding your reading is that users uploading code that they don't own the copyright to, but otherwise have the right to copy through a license, are in violation with the ToS in general. My reading is that the license grant only applies to "Your Content" as defined in the ToS, and otherwise users are free to upload code with permissive license and it _does not grant_ additional licenses to Github.
      - b3morales 5y ago
        The TOS is not a blanket grant for them to do anything they like with the material. As I said elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823862 > Certainly the GitHub TOS grants them some common-sense ability to copy the code you upload so that they can usefully host it. Can you point to the portion that allows them to use it for Copilot? > Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Section D4: > > This license does not grant GitHub the right to sell Your Content. It also does not grant GitHub the right to otherwise distribute or use Your Content outside of our provision of the Service...

zaptheimpaler 5y ago

IMO any place where Copilot is mentioned is a relevant place to put this. I don't know how anyone working in software can just turn a blind eye to shit like this. Anyone who uses Copilot is implicitly endorsing this theft. We have a duty as practitioners in the industry to call it out when we see something wrong. If even devs aren't calling bullshit on Copilot, the media won't care, courts won't care, and it will be declared legal, and future theft will be normalized. Its ridiculous how we all see the big tech companies doing various kinds of terrible shit and then the next new shiny thing comes along and everyone forgets all about it? Are you goldfish? What will it take to get someone to actually give a shit and stop supporting this kind of product/behavior?

fraktl 5y ago
> Anyone who uses Copilot is implicitly endorsing this theft. Just like you're endorsing being sponsored and effectively stealing GitHub's bandwith? :) > We have a duty as practitioners in the industry to call it out when we see something wrong. It's wrong both ways. You accepted the service from GitHub, the free one where you get to open your account, host your code, share it etc. What exactly did you expect? To be served for free for your entire lifetime? Please, get off the moral highground. You ate the devil fruit, now you're whining about it. You should be smart enough to know that this kind of whining will get you nowhere. Just quit.
- zaptheimpaler 5y ago
  Basically you are saying any product thats free should be able to break the law arbitrarily? Google can decide to post your all email online, your location history for all time, your photos and you would be ok with that because its free? The undoubtedly free DNS server you use can leak all your requests too? You're ok with that? Yes its free, no they did not tell me or ask for my permission before using the code in this way. Free does not give them the right to break existing laws and licenses. Its pretty simple.
  - mariusor 5y ago
    However you did give them permission to use your code by the fact that you acceded to their terms and conditions[1] when you created an account. IANAL, I don't know if this section would hold to scrutiny in a court of law, but I'm pretty sure this is what their legal team considers to cover them when it comes to training Copilot on code hosted with them. [1] https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-terms-of-service#4-license-grant-to-us https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-terms-o...
    - steerablesafe 5y ago
      People routinely share code on Github that is not owned or at least not fully owned by them, so they can't really rely only on the ToS.
      - mariusor 5y ago
        See one paragraph above what I initially linked. They cover that also.
        steerablesafe 5y ago
        IANAL, but that is not my reading. They cover "Your Content" with the license grant, but not "any Content". The user still has the right to post "any Content" if they have the appropriate license to do so, but obviously they can't grant additional licenses to content the user doesn't own. In my understanding your reading is that users uploading code that they don't own the copyright to, but otherwise have the right to copy through a license, are in violation with the ToS in general. My reading is that the license grant only applies to "Your Content" as defined in the ToS, and otherwise users are free to upload code with permissive license and it _does not grant_ additional licenses to Github.
    - b3morales 5y ago
      The TOS is not a blanket grant for them to do anything they like with the material. As I said elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823862 > Certainly the GitHub TOS grants them some common-sense ability to copy the code you upload so that they can usefully host it. Can you point to the portion that allows them to use it for Copilot? > Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Section D4: > > This license does not grant GitHub the right to sell Your Content. It also does not grant GitHub the right to otherwise distribute or use Your Content outside of our provision of the Service...