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Tesla’s ‘Full Self-Driving’ Beta Software Used on Public Roads Lacks Safeguards
- rado 5y agoOutrageous. Shut it down and come back in 2 years or so.
- meibo 5y agoThey've been coming back every two years since 2015. This will never happen with current Tesla hardware.
- Tepix 5y agoIt appears to be a combination of two issues: - "Videos of FSD beta 9 in action don’t show a system that makes driving safer or even less stressful" - "Tesla should at the very least be monitoring drivers in real time to ensure that they’re paying attention while using new software"
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago>Tesla should at the very least be monitoring drivers in real time to ensure that they’re paying attention while using new software They do https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cameras-for-driver-monitoring.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/28/tesla-starts-using-cabin-cam... https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1312607693249667073 https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1312607693249667073
- simondotau 5y agoThe article is hysterical clickbait nonsense and loaded with some very basic misunderstandings—seemingly including a fundamental confusion about what "beta" means. Even the headline is flat out false, because the FSD beta software contains numerous "safeguards". Tesla has deployed this beta software to just 1000 customers who have demonstrated competence and level-headedness. The drivers are required to keep their hands on the wheel, the same as with the adaptive cruise / lane centering features available on many new cars.
- czzr 5y agoYes, and Tesla also made sure that all the other road users around those 1000 beta testers opted in to being part of a development project. So all good.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoI've lived in Paris for 15+ years, where many drivers are worst than FSD. I've watched hours of beta on Youtube. I never opted in, either. Many human drivers don't care about cyclists safety: they overtake at high speed, sometimes within centimeters, and occasionally force us to change course or hit us (and don't stop to help unless we don't get up). Yet, we don't make such drivers take an exam to check their skills/behavior because they passed one many years ago. I'd like to know how many accidents have happened with FSD before we slow down self-driving (instead of the opinion of consumer groups who've always sided against this technology). Otherwise, we should put dangerous drivers out of the road _now_. We rarely do, even after they hit pedestrians or cyclists while texting, so I prefer we focus on improving driver assist systems and focus on actual accidents (instead of Tesla brushing against bushes).
- Gravityloss 5y agoYou should have a camera and report those drivers to police.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoI did! Multiple times, including one where I was hit from behind at high speed, injured, the driver stopped and left without helping. I file a claim ("contre X") at the police station and gave them the license plate (which they also heard when I called 911 right after it happened). This went nowhere, because the police was overwhelmed (that was during the gilets jaunes movement, and the police was busy going after people for destruction of public properties... priority, priority...)
- simondotau 5y ago
- ZeroGravitas 5y agoI need to come up with a snappy name for this, but I judge progress of things by the level of complaints. It seems the media isn't really set up to say, "yeah on balance this is probably better (or soon to become so) on average" as that's not attention grabbing. However, imagine finding yourself in some unlikely time travel event and seeing a headline from 5 or 10 years in the future and it's talking about how a car that drives itself brushed against some bushes as the major complaint.
- kalleboo 5y agoMusk said that their cars would be able to drive without human intervention coast to coast by 2017, that's nearly 5 years ago and it can't even navigate across a single city. At this rate it's more like 30-50 years away.
- hiharryhere 5y agoThe demo video linked in the body of the article is terrifying. https://youtu.be/GlIdu7prsAw?t=334 https://youtu.be/GlIdu7prsAw?t=334 https://youtu.be/GlIdu7prsAw?t=164 https://youtu.be/GlIdu7prsAw?t=164 I've skipped to spots where the car makes an error, but the whole video is worth a watch.
- zwirbl 5y agoThat video has some really terrifying moments. Some of the decisions would warrant an alpha flag
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoMy grandpa would warrant an alpha flag, too. But he still allowed to drive and his driving skills are not improving, at all. What the alpha flag would change, exactly?
- josefx 5y agoIf your grandfather drove bad enough to pull two such stunts on a single drive he wouldn't have a car to drive anymore. So an alpha flag would at least indicate: "drives literally worse than rcMgD2BwE72F's grandfather" .
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoErratum: my grandpa drives worst than FSD with human oversight (like in all the video you can find on Youtube). I didn't meant FSD without oversight, which is not possible anyway. But are we discussing the current level of FSD as a Level 5 system? Don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car#SAE_Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car#SAE_Classific...
- 5y ago
- labrador 5y agoI suspect too many people on HN are long or short on TSLA for there to be any reasonable discussion here.
- swiley 5y agoEven if I could afford it I wouldn't touch TSLA. That's gambling.
- dvh 5y agoI think self driving has no future because it concentrates defendants into single juicy target. Normal cars are random Joe vs. random Jane, both probably poor, lawsuit is not viable. Self driving cars is everybody vs. rich company. It's worth a try.
- eitland 5y agoVery good point. Counterpoint: whoever can convince insurance companies that they can reduce car accidents significantly might be in a very good position to strike a nice deal with one or more insurance companies.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoAnd Tesla has its own insurance program already https://www.tesla.com/insurance https://www.tesla.com/insurance
- SheinhardtWigCo 5y agoIf it can be proven to significantly reduce fatalities, governments will grant extensive liability protections.
- jacquesm 5y agoWatch the video.
- SheinhardtWigCo 5y agoI did, it's bad. I don't think this will happen soon.
- ekster 5y agoLarge companies will have the ability to lobby for no liability
- jacquesm 5y agoI watched the video linked, that software should not even be rated 'beginner driver' and nearly caused several accidents in the (short) video. What bothers me most is that there were several pedestrians clearly visible that it missed completely on the UI, it does a lot better with other vehicles. It also does not seem to correctly identify people on shared mobility devices (a couple of those electric scooters appear). This crap should not be in control of a vehicle.
- mavhc 5y agoThe v9 UI isn't showing everything it sees though
- jacquesm 5y agoExactly. Seeing is not understanding, and I take from objects popping in and out of existence that the software will be happy to erase you from its reality once confidence drops below a certain threshold. It does so with vehicles as well (also stationary ones), but those are presumably a lot more solid than those 'drive through pedestrians'.
- mavhc 5y agoI mean it's not showing to the user everything it's using to route through the world, you can't tell from that view what it's going to run straight through
- jacquesm 5y agoThat argument works both ways: you also can't tell from that view what it will stop for (or run straight through). If it is just infotainment then they should switch it off.
- mavhc 5y agoIt's for passengers, the human driver is supposed to be looking at the road. It's beta, why would you expect the part where it displays stuff for humans to be perfect?
- sschueller 5y agoI want a law passed that requires the installation of a giant light on top of the car to indicate to me that it is in self-driving mode and may do something unpredictable at any point. At least give me a chance of avoiding a crash, especially if I am underway on a motorbike.
- perryizgr8 5y ago> may do something unpredictable at any point. I think that's a good assumption for most human driven cars as well :)
- sundaeofshock 5y agoAs a pedestrian, I can make eye contact with a driver before crossing the street. I can’t do that with a self-driving car. I just have to hope the software is bug free and the various sensors are accurately detecting my presence.
- tartrate 5y ago"but what about human drivers" is not a constructive argument here. I agree with the parent question because I'm worried FSD will suddenly believe it's in a slalom competition on a straight road and hit me when we're parallel to eachother. That's something FSD is likely to do today that I don't expect any sober human driver to do.
- wil421 5y agoIf I get hit by a FSD Beta Tesla while cycling I will certainly think about taking Tesla to court. Has anyone sued Tesla for being hit by their self driving tech?
- simondotau 5y agoThere are approximately 1000 vehicles on the road which are equipped with the Tesla FSD Beta software. To date, no vehicles equipped with this FSD Beta have been involved in any collision while the software has been (or recently had been) in control.
- wil421 5y agoThey’ve doubled it and likely will continuing rolling it out. Thankfully, as you said, none have been involved in an accident. If you look at YouTube there are tons of sleeping Tesla drivers on the highway and I think a lot are just pranks. Once people start doing stupid stuff like this on normal roads it’s not going to be fun for the people on the receiving end. https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-tesla-fsd-beta-testers-double-ones-not-paying-attention-removed-and-no-more-radar https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-tesla-fsd-beta-te...
- simondotau 5y ago> I think a lot are just pranks I haven't seen a single one that didn't obviously look like a prank.
- brtkdotse 5y agoImagine if your kid got hit by a “self driving” Tesla because Ol’ Musky wanted to be an AI big shot. I’d would Lose. My. Mind.
- CryptoPunk 5y agoCould we have cities where people opt-in to subjecting themselves to this kind of risk, and receive some subsidy in exchange? Maybe these cities could furthermore be child-free, a la GTA V, so only consenting adults are subject to these heightened risks.