8 ms·

Toyota to Launch All-New Aqua (Prius C) with new bipolar nickel-hydrogen battery

55 points by fomine3 5y ago

wodenokoto 5y ago
I don’t understand what is being announced here. As in, I can’t understand the marketing speak. It’s an update of a 2011 car, but why is it newsworthy? If it’s a Prius, why is it called Aqua? If it’s electric only, why is it a hybrid? What does nickel-hydrogen battery do better?
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Not particularly newsworthy. Just an update. It's not electric-only. It's a hybrid electric-only (as in a non-plug-in hybrid). They hyphenated it in a confusing way. (Edit: I guess they increased the electric mode max speed…) Doesn't seem to do anything massively better, really. It's nickel metal hydride like the old one, although tweaked and optimized a bit. I guess it's cheap?
- rrmm 5y ago
  Aqua is the nameplate in Japan. Prius-C elsewhere. New battery technology apparently for NiMH and a higher electric-only mode speed (before the ICE kicks in). Toyota seems to prefer the NiMH batteries as they've got a long history with them and a mature (and highly regarded) system. I think it might also avoid patents and other entanglements with Li-ion.
  - fps_colton 5y ago
    It's true that Toyota does employ NiMH batterys often, but they still offer models with Li-ion (Prius Prime, FWD Prius). The NiMH batteries tend to be found in the cheaper models (Prius C/Aqua) or those intended for colder climates (Prius AWD).
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Interesting news is that some Japanese article said that only most cheap grade uses Li-ion battery meanwhile other grades use this nickel battery. I wonder is it because really superior than Li-ion or just because it's expensive initially. Edit: This article said that the new nickel is 1000Wh/L meanwhile Li-ion on cheaper model is 740Wh/L. It seems that now nickel overcomes Li-ion for Wh per volume. (other Li-ions also seems to <= 800Wh/L) https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1338990.html https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1338990.html https://www.eenewspower.com/news/nanograf-hits-800whl-milestone-silicon-battery https://www.eenewspower.com/news/nanograf-hits-800whl-milest...
      - svacko 5y ago
        NiMH batteries are also offered in higher-end models like RAV4 AWDi, etc. Purchasing RAV4 in EU one doesn't even know at the time of purchase what battery type will arrive with the car, what I find kinda strange. Both types of batteries have pros and cons - this YT channel of a Toyota mechanic provides pretty clear explanation of the differences https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3Lg3qJcnc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3Lg3qJcnc
      - baybal2 5y ago
        > I wonder is it because really superior than Li-ion or just because it's expensive initially. Pretty much one, and only remarkable trait is that they work well at < 0C°
        lovemenot 5y ago
        Don't know the chemistry used by Toyota, but NiMH is less likely to feature Cobalt than a LiIon cell. If so, it's a benefit.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fomine3 5y ago
  This is All-New model different from 2011- Aqua. It shares same platform as Yaris. Aqua is the name for used in Japan, called Prius C on other market. This is just HEV. This release argues that there are significant improvements by using bipolar battery. That's why I post here. > Compared to the previous-generation nickel-hydrogen battery, the all-new bipolar nickel-hydrogen battery delivers 1.5-times greater output per cell, and packs 1.4-times more cells in the same-sized space; together, this leads to a total output increase of approximately two-fold.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    This release argues that there are significant improvements by using bipolar battery. That's why I post here. What other kind of battery is there?
    - fomine3 5y ago
      non-bipolar as described in release.
      - CamperBob2 5y ago
        So it's the electrode that's bipolar, not the battery.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      Plain Ni-MH
  - fy20 5y ago
    In Europe it's just Yaris - they share the same name for hybrid and non-hybrid drive trains. I wonder why Toyota decided to give them different names (which all sound equally global) in different regions, seems really confusing. As far as I know Toyota, all other cars Toyota sells have the same name worldwide.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Add more complexity: Yaris was named as "Vitz" in Japan from the beginning until 2019 Yaris was sold. Aqua coexists with Vitz Hybrid and Yaris Hybrid so Aqua can't be named as them. It seems that EU Yaris Hybrid are equivalent to Vitz/Yaris Hybrid.
- spike021 5y ago
  Cars don't always have the same name in different locales, just like if you're building an app or website you wind up changing strings to better fit a locale, even if it uses the same language.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >but why is it newsworthy? Because Toyota. The HN demographics love Toyota as much as they love Tesla, arguably more (Tesla is more polarizing, at least some people actively dislike them).
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    Do we? I have a C-HR, and it's very underwhelming. Only reason I bought it was because I totaled my Honda, and we had bought a RAV4 for my wife less than a month before - we traded in 2 cars, so on my credit it looked like I had 4 loans outstanding at that moment, so that one dealership had all the paperwork to prove otherwise.
dimitar 5y ago
The mileage is impressive: 35.8 km/L (or 2.8l/100km, or 84 mpg).
- pkulak 5y ago
  Probably on one of the essentially broken tests like WLTP.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    From the footnotes: > 35.8 km/L refers to the fuel efficiency of the all-new Aqua B grade, under the WLTC test cycle, according to tests conducted by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Vehicles_Test_Procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Veh...
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically", when they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle that is far more sustainable but also practical? What's not practical with other BEV (Tesla, Hyundai Kona, ID.3, XPeng…) and that Toyota cannot improve (e.g by building a large network of charging stations)?
- lovemenot 5y ago
  I guess you answered your own question. Toyota doesn't appear to be interested in investing in a global chain of charging stations at this time. So from their perspective, a transition using existing infrastructure is practical.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  > they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle There's something weird about Ford making a mass-market electric F-150 before Toyota has a mass-market car. I know they're betting on hydrogen, but so many other companies are so far ahead with electric cars that it's a little worrying. The irony is this is the company that's most associated with hybrids.
  - PicassoCTs 5y ago
    From a engineering perspective, a purely electric vehicle is very simple, not a challenge and in engineering focused companies thus often considered "unworthy" of time and effort. Internally you will often hear terms like "golf-cart" and "toy" to describe them. They threaten the careers of whole departments and large established supply chains. This fear/anger often manifests as subtle internal sabotage to pure electric projects.
    - m-ee 5y ago
      No engineer that knows anything about batteries would call a battery pack/BMS design that meets automotive requirements simple.
      - 5y ago
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
The single pedal is not that revolutionary these days, and I don't see anything technologically interesting about a HEV platform supporting it, since single pedal is fundamentally about regenerative braking. "the speed range at which the all-new Aqua can operate on electrical power alone has been expanded" That seems to me like they are putting lipstick on a pig. Tesla is showing how fast a pure electric car can be, and an all-EV drivetrain, even a cheap one, should provide a VERY zippy experience to all daily driving scenarios. The fact they aren't bragging about an impressive all-electric range (which IMO should be a 50 mile minimum range enforced by governments to get any PHEV class incentives) or any density comparisons with even LFP or other battery chemistries seems to indicate this is basically a design that was barely improved and sent out to mint profits for another cycle. Problem is, BEVs are going to destroy this car in performance, will outclass it in environmental virtue signaling, and shows no real technological progress towards a BEV drivetrain. Between this and its obsession with hydrogen ... Plus the tokyo olympics (one year late themselves) were supposed to be the debut of a near-production solid state battery. That is vaporware so far, and combined with the Quantumscape short seller report, solid state looks pretty far away. Toyota and most manufacturers besides GM and VW are clearly praying... uh... planning for the solid state battery to be a reality and close the gap with Tesla. Meanwhile Tesla keeps inching forward with gradual improvements and scale.
- phonon 5y ago
  This has a starting price of 1,980,000 Yen (about $18,000). It will be quite a few years before Tesla will offer anything in that price range.
  - ratsforhorses 5y ago
    Yeah but if you take into account the savings on fuel a Renault Zoe newer model for 25k Chf pretty much hits that sweet spot...besides torque acceleration, silence and the good conscience of no toxic smelly fumes are pretty good bonus arguments...
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    Just wait for the Chinese EV makers to hit US shores. A $10000 100 mile lfp bev is probably doable with current tech and regulations. Tesla won't stoop to that, but others will
xivzgrev 5y ago
Saw this Toyota was bipolar. Was hoping for an Onion article about how it would accelerate to 200mph uncontrollably, then shut off for days.
Quequau 5y ago
For those wondering what the deal with a "bipolar battery" is I found a simple diagram that explains it. https://www.piston.my/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Toyota-Bipolar-nickel-hydrogen-battery-2.jpg https://www.piston.my/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Toyota-Bipo...
- fy20 5y ago
  I wonder if it will be possible to replace individual cells? When the battery fails in a Toyota hybrid (usually not something you need to worry about until you've done hundreds of thousands of miles), it usually only needs a few cells replaced to be brought back to life.
joshtam 5y ago
Can someone explain if this will lave marginal implications on range? Is this a revolutionary tech or just another marginal iteration?
stefanve 5y ago
I have driven the original in Japan, first time going over a mountain I was wandering if it would survive. The sound of the CVT is alarming if you hear it for the first time. Otherwise a good but boring car.
tibbydudeza 5y ago
FEV might work fine in China/US/Europe but most countries are simply not ready for them - this a good compromise.

55 points by fomine3 5y ago

I don’t understand what is being announced here. As in, I can’t understand the marketing speak. It’s an update of a 2011 car, but why is it newsworthy? If it’s a Prius, why is it called Aqua? If it’s electric only, why is it a hybrid? What does nickel-hydrogen battery do better?

Robotbeat 5y ago
Not particularly newsworthy. Just an update. It's not electric-only. It's a hybrid electric-only (as in a non-plug-in hybrid). They hyphenated it in a confusing way. (Edit: I guess they increased the electric mode max speed…) Doesn't seem to do anything massively better, really. It's nickel metal hydride like the old one, although tweaked and optimized a bit. I guess it's cheap?
rrmm 5y ago
Aqua is the nameplate in Japan. Prius-C elsewhere. New battery technology apparently for NiMH and a higher electric-only mode speed (before the ICE kicks in). Toyota seems to prefer the NiMH batteries as they've got a long history with them and a mature (and highly regarded) system. I think it might also avoid patents and other entanglements with Li-ion.
- fps_colton 5y ago
  It's true that Toyota does employ NiMH batterys often, but they still offer models with Li-ion (Prius Prime, FWD Prius). The NiMH batteries tend to be found in the cheaper models (Prius C/Aqua) or those intended for colder climates (Prius AWD).
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Interesting news is that some Japanese article said that only most cheap grade uses Li-ion battery meanwhile other grades use this nickel battery. I wonder is it because really superior than Li-ion or just because it's expensive initially. Edit: This article said that the new nickel is 1000Wh/L meanwhile Li-ion on cheaper model is 740Wh/L. It seems that now nickel overcomes Li-ion for Wh per volume. (other Li-ions also seems to <= 800Wh/L) https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1338990.html https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1338990.html https://www.eenewspower.com/news/nanograf-hits-800whl-milestone-silicon-battery https://www.eenewspower.com/news/nanograf-hits-800whl-milest...
    - svacko 5y ago
      NiMH batteries are also offered in higher-end models like RAV4 AWDi, etc. Purchasing RAV4 in EU one doesn't even know at the time of purchase what battery type will arrive with the car, what I find kinda strange. Both types of batteries have pros and cons - this YT channel of a Toyota mechanic provides pretty clear explanation of the differences https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3Lg3qJcnc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS3Lg3qJcnc
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > I wonder is it because really superior than Li-ion or just because it's expensive initially. Pretty much one, and only remarkable trait is that they work well at < 0C°
      - lovemenot 5y ago
        Don't know the chemistry used by Toyota, but NiMH is less likely to feature Cobalt than a LiIon cell. If so, it's a benefit.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fomine3 5y ago
This is All-New model different from 2011- Aqua. It shares same platform as Yaris. Aqua is the name for used in Japan, called Prius C on other market. This is just HEV. This release argues that there are significant improvements by using bipolar battery. That's why I post here. > Compared to the previous-generation nickel-hydrogen battery, the all-new bipolar nickel-hydrogen battery delivers 1.5-times greater output per cell, and packs 1.4-times more cells in the same-sized space; together, this leads to a total output increase of approximately two-fold.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  This release argues that there are significant improvements by using bipolar battery. That's why I post here. What other kind of battery is there?
  - fomine3 5y ago
    non-bipolar as described in release.
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      So it's the electrode that's bipolar, not the battery.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Plain Ni-MH
- fy20 5y ago
  In Europe it's just Yaris - they share the same name for hybrid and non-hybrid drive trains. I wonder why Toyota decided to give them different names (which all sound equally global) in different regions, seems really confusing. As far as I know Toyota, all other cars Toyota sells have the same name worldwide.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Add more complexity: Yaris was named as "Vitz" in Japan from the beginning until 2019 Yaris was sold. Aqua coexists with Vitz Hybrid and Yaris Hybrid so Aqua can't be named as them. It seems that EU Yaris Hybrid are equivalent to Vitz/Yaris Hybrid.
spike021 5y ago
Cars don't always have the same name in different locales, just like if you're building an app or website you wind up changing strings to better fit a locale, even if it uses the same language.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>but why is it newsworthy? Because Toyota. The HN demographics love Toyota as much as they love Tesla, arguably more (Tesla is more polarizing, at least some people actively dislike them).
- bdcravens 5y ago
  Do we? I have a C-HR, and it's very underwhelming. Only reason I bought it was because I totaled my Honda, and we had bought a RAV4 for my wife less than a month before - we traded in 2 cars, so on my credit it looked like I had 4 loans outstanding at that moment, so that one dealership had all the paperwork to prove otherwise.

dimitar 5y ago

The mileage is impressive: 35.8 km/L (or 2.8l/100km, or 84 mpg).

pkulak 5y ago
Probably on one of the essentially broken tests like WLTP.
- adrianN 5y ago
  From the footnotes: > 35.8 km/L refers to the fuel efficiency of the all-new Aqua B grade, under the WLTC test cycle, according to tests conducted by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Vehicles_Test_Procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Veh...

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago

What do they mean by "introduce sustainable vehicles practically", when they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle that is far more sustainable but also practical? What's not practical with other BEV (Tesla, Hyundai Kona, ID.3, XPeng…) and that Toyota cannot improve (e.g by building a large network of charging stations)?

lovemenot 5y ago
I guess you answered your own question. Toyota doesn't appear to be interested in investing in a global chain of charging stations at this time. So from their perspective, a transition using existing infrastructure is practical.
dehrmann 5y ago
> they could have announced a 100% electric vehicle There's something weird about Ford making a mass-market electric F-150 before Toyota has a mass-market car. I know they're betting on hydrogen, but so many other companies are so far ahead with electric cars that it's a little worrying. The irony is this is the company that's most associated with hybrids.
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  From a engineering perspective, a purely electric vehicle is very simple, not a challenge and in engineering focused companies thus often considered "unworthy" of time and effort. Internally you will often hear terms like "golf-cart" and "toy" to describe them. They threaten the careers of whole departments and large established supply chains. This fear/anger often manifests as subtle internal sabotage to pure electric projects.
  - m-ee 5y ago
    No engineer that knows anything about batteries would call a battery pack/BMS design that meets automotive requirements simple.
    - 5y ago

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

The single pedal is not that revolutionary these days, and I don't see anything technologically interesting about a HEV platform supporting it, since single pedal is fundamentally about regenerative braking. "the speed range at which the all-new Aqua can operate on electrical power alone has been expanded" That seems to me like they are putting lipstick on a pig. Tesla is showing how fast a pure electric car can be, and an all-EV drivetrain, even a cheap one, should provide a VERY zippy experience to all daily driving scenarios. The fact they aren't bragging about an impressive all-electric range (which IMO should be a 50 mile minimum range enforced by governments to get any PHEV class incentives) or any density comparisons with even LFP or other battery chemistries seems to indicate this is basically a design that was barely improved and sent out to mint profits for another cycle. Problem is, BEVs are going to destroy this car in performance, will outclass it in environmental virtue signaling, and shows no real technological progress towards a BEV drivetrain. Between this and its obsession with hydrogen ... Plus the tokyo olympics (one year late themselves) were supposed to be the debut of a near-production solid state battery. That is vaporware so far, and combined with the Quantumscape short seller report, solid state looks pretty far away. Toyota and most manufacturers besides GM and VW are clearly praying... uh... planning for the solid state battery to be a reality and close the gap with Tesla. Meanwhile Tesla keeps inching forward with gradual improvements and scale.

phonon 5y ago
This has a starting price of 1,980,000 Yen (about $18,000). It will be quite a few years before Tesla will offer anything in that price range.
- ratsforhorses 5y ago
  Yeah but if you take into account the savings on fuel a Renault Zoe newer model for 25k Chf pretty much hits that sweet spot...besides torque acceleration, silence and the good conscience of no toxic smelly fumes are pretty good bonus arguments...
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  Just wait for the Chinese EV makers to hit US shores. A $10000 100 mile lfp bev is probably doable with current tech and regulations. Tesla won't stoop to that, but others will

xivzgrev 5y ago

Saw this Toyota was bipolar. Was hoping for an Onion article about how it would accelerate to 200mph uncontrollably, then shut off for days.

Quequau 5y ago

For those wondering what the deal with a "bipolar battery" is I found a simple diagram that explains it. https://www.piston.my/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Toyota-Bipolar-nickel-hydrogen-battery-2.jpg https://www.piston.my/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Toyota-Bipo...

fy20 5y ago
I wonder if it will be possible to replace individual cells? When the battery fails in a Toyota hybrid (usually not something you need to worry about until you've done hundreds of thousands of miles), it usually only needs a few cells replaced to be brought back to life.

joshtam 5y ago

Can someone explain if this will lave marginal implications on range? Is this a revolutionary tech or just another marginal iteration?

stefanve 5y ago

I have driven the original in Japan, first time going over a mountain I was wandering if it would survive. The sound of the CVT is alarming if you hear it for the first time. Otherwise a good but boring car.

tibbydudeza 5y ago

FEV might work fine in China/US/Europe but most countries are simply not ready for them - this a good compromise.