4 ms·

What the hell is the point of having rights when someone can coerce you into signing them away?

by Causality1 5y ago

mtnGoat 5y ago
you dont have to deal with them if you dont want to. i do not see the coercion.
- d110af5ccf 5y ago
  Ah yes, just don't participate in society if I wish to retain my "rights". Why didn't I think of that?! That being said, rights are being restored in this case (ie things are heading back to the courts) so GP seems a bit off base to me in context.
  - beart 5y ago
    "rights are being restored" feels wrong in this context. "A corporation has determined its more profitable to let you sue them" seems more accurate.
- rtkwe 5y ago
  Pretty much every contract with a large company has a similar clause in it where they require you to go to arbitration instead of through the courts for disputes. This site requires binding arbitration in it's TOS, to avoid it you basically cannot use any service that's not open source and self hosted. No power, internet, cable, etc either those also definitely have BA clauses, it's impossible to live in modern society without agreeing to it because everyone requires it.
  - mtnGoat 5y ago
    True, but in this case I was specifically referring to Amazon, which you can pretty easily live without ordering on. I have family that doesn’t have internet, never have and are doing fine. It’s quite possible. Just because you can’t handle it, doesn’t make it not possible.
    - rtkwe 5y ago
      You were making an argument about choice though when there's not really a choice to avoid binding arbitration clauses. It's not just an internet company thing most contracts include a BA clause because arbitration is generally favorable to businesses. Amazon is only removing it because someone figured out they could cost Amazon a lot of money in arbitration filing fees by taking essentially a whole class action suit into the arbitration system.
floatingatoll 5y ago
Many legal jurisdictions declare that you cannot be coerced into signing away various rights by altering the legal code to remove your ability to do so. For example, California passed SB 707 shortly after Doordash was told by a judge to pay up on their overdue and unpaid $10mil of mandatory arbitration fees back in 2019: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB707&showamends=false https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... Here's a couple of relevant paragraphs of the amended laws: > In California, private contracts that violate public policy are unenforceable. Under Section 3513 of the Civil Code, contract terms that require a party to forgo unwaivable statutory rights are unenforceable. Similarly, Section 1668 of the Civil Code provides that contracts exempting parties from responsibility of their own violation of law are also unenforceable. Thus, under these and other contract defenses of general applicability, a mandatory arbitration agreement, like any other agreement, cannot undercut unwaivable state statutory rights by, for example, reducing the limitations period to commence an action or arbitration, eliminating certain statutory remedies, or erecting excessive cost barriers to obtaining them. > In an employment or consumer arbitration that requires, either expressly or through application of state or federal law or the rules of the arbitration provider, that the drafting party pay certain fees and costs during the pendency of an arbitration proceeding, if the fees or costs required to continue the arbitration proceeding are not paid within 30 days after the due date, the drafting party is in material breach of the arbitration agreement, is in default of the arbitration, and waives its right to compel the employee or consumer to proceed with that arbitration as a result of the material breach. (I am not your lawyer, social media comments are no substitute for legal counsel, etc.)
CrazyCatDog 5y ago
The thing is, you—-and only you—-get to set the price you charge for selling out
- edrxty 5y ago
  Looks like the only way to never sell out to anyone is to go live in a cave.
cortesoft 5y ago
Some rights you can sign away and some you can’t. Being able to enter into whatever contract you want is also a right.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  When I worked in commercial lending, reading operating agreements and bylaws taught me that. People can pretty much opt to be a slave if they want. The only time legal rights get involved is when it gets brought to the courts. Otherwise, you're free to have as much or as limited rights as youre willing to negotiate for.

What the hell is the point of having rights when someone can coerce you into signing them away?

mtnGoat 5y ago

you dont have to deal with them if you dont want to. i do not see the coercion.

d110af5ccf 5y ago
Ah yes, just don't participate in society if I wish to retain my "rights". Why didn't I think of that?! That being said, rights are being restored in this case (ie things are heading back to the courts) so GP seems a bit off base to me in context.
- beart 5y ago
  "rights are being restored" feels wrong in this context. "A corporation has determined its more profitable to let you sue them" seems more accurate.
rtkwe 5y ago
Pretty much every contract with a large company has a similar clause in it where they require you to go to arbitration instead of through the courts for disputes. This site requires binding arbitration in it's TOS, to avoid it you basically cannot use any service that's not open source and self hosted. No power, internet, cable, etc either those also definitely have BA clauses, it's impossible to live in modern society without agreeing to it because everyone requires it.
- mtnGoat 5y ago
  True, but in this case I was specifically referring to Amazon, which you can pretty easily live without ordering on. I have family that doesn’t have internet, never have and are doing fine. It’s quite possible. Just because you can’t handle it, doesn’t make it not possible.
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    You were making an argument about choice though when there's not really a choice to avoid binding arbitration clauses. It's not just an internet company thing most contracts include a BA clause because arbitration is generally favorable to businesses. Amazon is only removing it because someone figured out they could cost Amazon a lot of money in arbitration filing fees by taking essentially a whole class action suit into the arbitration system.

floatingatoll 5y ago

Many legal jurisdictions declare that you cannot be coerced into signing away various rights by altering the legal code to remove your ability to do so. For example, California passed SB 707 shortly after Doordash was told by a judge to pay up on their overdue and unpaid $10mil of mandatory arbitration fees back in 2019: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB707&showamends=false https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... Here's a couple of relevant paragraphs of the amended laws: > In California, private contracts that violate public policy are unenforceable. Under Section 3513 of the Civil Code, contract terms that require a party to forgo unwaivable statutory rights are unenforceable. Similarly, Section 1668 of the Civil Code provides that contracts exempting parties from responsibility of their own violation of law are also unenforceable. Thus, under these and other contract defenses of general applicability, a mandatory arbitration agreement, like any other agreement, cannot undercut unwaivable state statutory rights by, for example, reducing the limitations period to commence an action or arbitration, eliminating certain statutory remedies, or erecting excessive cost barriers to obtaining them. > In an employment or consumer arbitration that requires, either expressly or through application of state or federal law or the rules of the arbitration provider, that the drafting party pay certain fees and costs during the pendency of an arbitration proceeding, if the fees or costs required to continue the arbitration proceeding are not paid within 30 days after the due date, the drafting party is in material breach of the arbitration agreement, is in default of the arbitration, and waives its right to compel the employee or consumer to proceed with that arbitration as a result of the material breach. (I am not your lawyer, social media comments are no substitute for legal counsel, etc.)

CrazyCatDog 5y ago

The thing is, you—-and only you—-get to set the price you charge for selling out

edrxty 5y ago
Looks like the only way to never sell out to anyone is to go live in a cave.

cortesoft 5y ago

Some rights you can sign away and some you can’t. Being able to enter into whatever contract you want is also a right.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
When I worked in commercial lending, reading operating agreements and bylaws taught me that. People can pretty much opt to be a slave if they want. The only time legal rights get involved is when it gets brought to the courts. Otherwise, you're free to have as much or as limited rights as youre willing to negotiate for.