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> Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these t

> Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc. Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").

eropple 5y ago
I upvoted this post, but I also want to call it out as a really humane and also wise post. I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. Yep, this is a very deeply ingrained part of trades. Apprenticeship is a legitimate portion of one's career, and as such people further along usually have an appreciation for apprentices and apprenticeship. I've never met a legitimate (meaning, person that was trained appropriately and continued to work in their profession) tradesperson that kept secrets. > The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them. Without getting hyper-political, I fear this is the same problem as the "incel" topic of late. Getting rejected and then doubling down on a persona, rather than introspecting on to how or why a portion of that rejection was warranted, I think causes huge huge problems. I think the "hardcore nerd" persona is similar, as "hardcore nerds" usually don't make it very far. If you go through FAANG companies, you won't find a ton of people that fit the bill. Maybe some kinda-weirdos, but the higher up you go the more comfortable people are going to be educating and communicating (except maybe Amazon). Do you think it's valuable, when shit's super important and hard to do, to condescend to those around you? To pad your ego? I don't really think so.
tomc1985 5y ago
You can call it those things but it falls away for those who put in the effort to learn the skills at an acceptable level. We don't care where or how you learned it. Can you do the work without fucking it up consistently? Then you're in. And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work. Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed. Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad -- even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > You can call it those things but it falls away for those who put in the effort to learn the skills at an acceptable level. We don't care where or how you learned it. Can you do the work without fucking it up consistently? Then you're in. So is your argument that it's not just "hardcore nerds" capable of successfully building the systems in this thread? Because that's been my entire point. > And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work. Here here. > Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed. The same can be true of those that would never identify as a "hardcore nerd". Almost as though the way one carries themselves is unrelated to their ability. > Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad -- I paint "hardcore nerds" that condescend to people they call "muggles" as all bad, because 80% of getting things done is working with other people, and that behavior explicitly calls out an ability to work productively with others. > even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly. The persona you carry around is a great way to have all of your points dismissed indiscriminately. Expressing yourself strongly is great! Being an asshole, less so.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
908B64B197 5y ago
> "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots You aren't hiring the right ones!
- blooalien 5y ago
  Anyone who'd even work for someone who thinks of them as "hardcore nerds" (this characterization shows a level of disrespect for skills and knowledge that I can't even fathom) isn't likely the sort of person who's gonna give 110% like a real professional IT person would. A proper IT guy doesn't build "random unmaintainable" anything. If they do, then you totally hired the wrong guy. ;)
markus_zhang 5y ago
I can also say those certificates and permits very easily devolves into caste walls and do not necessarily on par with quality of service. I'm really surprised that CS people enjoy those castes walls unless you live in a beaurocratic enterprise.

eropple 5y ago

I upvoted this post, but I also want to call it out as a really humane and also wise post. I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.

void_mint 5y ago
> I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. Yep, this is a very deeply ingrained part of trades. Apprenticeship is a legitimate portion of one's career, and as such people further along usually have an appreciation for apprentices and apprenticeship. I've never met a legitimate (meaning, person that was trained appropriately and continued to work in their profession) tradesperson that kept secrets. > The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them. Without getting hyper-political, I fear this is the same problem as the "incel" topic of late. Getting rejected and then doubling down on a persona, rather than introspecting on to how or why a portion of that rejection was warranted, I think causes huge huge problems. I think the "hardcore nerd" persona is similar, as "hardcore nerds" usually don't make it very far. If you go through FAANG companies, you won't find a ton of people that fit the bill. Maybe some kinda-weirdos, but the higher up you go the more comfortable people are going to be educating and communicating (except maybe Amazon). Do you think it's valuable, when shit's super important and hard to do, to condescend to those around you? To pad your ego? I don't really think so.

tomc1985 5y ago

You can call it those things but it falls away for those who put in the effort to learn the skills at an acceptable level. We don't care where or how you learned it. Can you do the work without fucking it up consistently? Then you're in. And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work. Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed. Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad -- even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly.

void_mint 5y ago
> You can call it those things but it falls away for those who put in the effort to learn the skills at an acceptable level. We don't care where or how you learned it. Can you do the work without fucking it up consistently? Then you're in. So is your argument that it's not just "hardcore nerds" capable of successfully building the systems in this thread? Because that's been my entire point. > And frankly I wish software engineering had a credible certification body and apprenticeship system. We are in dire need of one! At least then I could have a lot more confidence when whoever walks through the door looking for work. Here here. > Yes hardcore nerds make messes but they also build and run some of the most beautiful code that ever existed. The same can be true of those that would never identify as a "hardcore nerd". Almost as though the way one carries themselves is unrelated to their ability. > Not to say that normal folks can't, but you can't paint hardcore nerds as all bad -- I paint "hardcore nerds" that condescend to people they call "muggles" as all bad, because 80% of getting things done is working with other people, and that behavior explicitly calls out an ability to work productively with others. > even with me as an example, because I have a bone to pick with tech and attitudes like yours and I'm not afraid to express it strongly. The persona you carry around is a great way to have all of your points dismissed indiscriminately. Expressing yourself strongly is great! Being an asshole, less so.
- tomc1985 5y ago

908B64B197 5y ago

> "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots You aren't hiring the right ones!

blooalien 5y ago
Anyone who'd even work for someone who thinks of them as "hardcore nerds" (this characterization shows a level of disrespect for skills and knowledge that I can't even fathom) isn't likely the sort of person who's gonna give 110% like a real professional IT person would. A proper IT guy doesn't build "random unmaintainable" anything. If they do, then you totally hired the wrong guy. ;)

markus_zhang 5y ago

I can also say those certificates and permits very easily devolves into caste walls and do not necessarily on par with quality of service. I'm really surprised that CS people enjoy those castes walls unless you live in a beaurocratic enterprise.