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> Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and y

> Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and you can copy from them. Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? > Also, why is it not okay for nerds to command high rates? Doctors do it. Lawyers do it. Politicians do it. And most of them suck at their job, by the way. So if a "hacker" could deliver on his promise, I think paying him a high white-collar rate is quite fair. I'm responding almost entirely to the idea that "hardcore nerds" are the people to employ, and "muggles" are not. Paying for expertise is great! But really, as with all technology, I want to pay for people to make things easier for those around them. It strikes me as painfully obvious that, if you're crying out to employ "hardcore nerds" because "muggles" can't handle the work, you're also probably not the type to employ at all, either way. This is just my take, however.

Retric 5y ago
The point is you want hardcore nerds relative to your organization. At the coffee shop level that might just be paying someone 15$ an hour rather than winging it. It’s little different than calling an electrician rather than stringing extension cords everywhere. At the other end, Fortune 500 companies have unique needs which requirer significant expertise. At that level trying to outsource most stuff is perfectly reasonable, but they still need internal talent to avoid being ripped off or suffering major disasters.
- void_mint 5y ago
  I am again speaking purely about the elitism and arrogance of the phrasing from the original post. In my experience, the absolute best people in a given field aren't even close to what I would call a "hardcore nerd", and those same people would also certainly not condescend to those with different skillsets via referring to them as "muggles". Pay people that have a skillset to do a job. But note that, for most orgs, the job _isn't_ "Do a job and be a dick about it", which is what we've been talking about. Being successful in a role means working with others for a common goal. That's literally what companies are (or, I should say, were meant to be).
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. It was a challenge I accepted and eventually overcame (through great personal turmoil), and now folks are trying to come in and negate it completely because it doesn't fit with their iconoclastic, kumbaya view of the world
    - void_mint 5y ago
      > Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc. Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").
      - eropple 5y ago
        I upvoted this post, but I also want to call it out as a really humane and also wise post. I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Vrondi 5y ago
You should employ them, because you run a business that depends on IT that you'd like to keep running without paying protection racket money. Or so I presume. If you enjoy paying a mafia, then by all means, do so.
- void_mint 5y ago
  I usually employ people that are both technically competent and capable of working on a team and communicating.
  - new_guy 5y ago
    Given your lack of communication skills displayed here you send up more red flags than a matador. The problem is you, not the people you're hiring.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      Thanks for the feedback I guess. edit it wasn’t really feedback. Closer to a complaint.
  - oytis 5y ago
    You probably have some negative experience with nerds, but what the poster meant I think is just people with interest and hard skills in computers. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to communicate, it means they should be able to also do other things than communicating.
beefield 5y ago
> Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? Because the referred "hardcore nerds" are only ones who actually bother[1] to figure out what piece of config to copy where? [1] most of what most people think is hardcore nerdiness is just this: https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/
csomar 5y ago
> Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? You employ who can get the job done. I don't really care what they are called. I answered you on the "gatekeeping" part. If there is something I like about this community (IT) is that there is way less gatekeeping than any other profession.

Retric 5y ago

The point is you want hardcore nerds relative to your organization. At the coffee shop level that might just be paying someone 15$ an hour rather than winging it. It’s little different than calling an electrician rather than stringing extension cords everywhere. At the other end, Fortune 500 companies have unique needs which requirer significant expertise. At that level trying to outsource most stuff is perfectly reasonable, but they still need internal talent to avoid being ripped off or suffering major disasters.

void_mint 5y ago
I am again speaking purely about the elitism and arrogance of the phrasing from the original post. In my experience, the absolute best people in a given field aren't even close to what I would call a "hardcore nerd", and those same people would also certainly not condescend to those with different skillsets via referring to them as "muggles". Pay people that have a skillset to do a job. But note that, for most orgs, the job _isn't_ "Do a job and be a dick about it", which is what we've been talking about. Being successful in a role means working with others for a common goal. That's literally what companies are (or, I should say, were meant to be).
- tomc1985 5y ago
  Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. It was a challenge I accepted and eventually overcame (through great personal turmoil), and now folks are trying to come in and negate it completely because it doesn't fit with their iconoclastic, kumbaya view of the world
  - void_mint 5y ago
    > Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc. Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").
    - eropple 5y ago
      I upvoted this post, but I also want to call it out as a really humane and also wise post. I know a lot of folks who work every day in the trades and to a person (don't worry, 'tomc1985, this isn't me being woke, I'm acquainted with women in the trades too) the best folks I know have no stake in gatekeeping. They're excited to bring in new folks to the profession--granted, it helps that they're cheaper to start out, but the folks I've talked to know that eventually they'd like to retire and people are still gonna need drains snaked--and liberal with teaching what they know. My electrician walked me, as a "muggle", through my house's wiring until he was confident that I would be able to understand what my house was doing and explain it to somebody else. The guy who acts like 'tomc1985 describes is the guy who does not get called back for a second job. In tech, we used to call them BOFHs and make fun of them while they thought we thought they were cool. Now we just don't hire them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Vrondi 5y ago

You should employ them, because you run a business that depends on IT that you'd like to keep running without paying protection racket money. Or so I presume. If you enjoy paying a mafia, then by all means, do so.

void_mint 5y ago
I usually employ people that are both technically competent and capable of working on a team and communicating.
- new_guy 5y ago
  Given your lack of communication skills displayed here you send up more red flags than a matador. The problem is you, not the people you're hiring.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Thanks for the feedback I guess. edit it wasn’t really feedback. Closer to a complaint.
- oytis 5y ago
  You probably have some negative experience with nerds, but what the poster meant I think is just people with interest and hard skills in computers. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to communicate, it means they should be able to also do other things than communicating.

beefield 5y ago

> Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? Because the referred "hardcore nerds" are only ones who actually bother[1] to figure out what piece of config to copy where? [1] most of what most people think is hardcore nerdiness is just this: https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/

csomar 5y ago

> Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? You employ who can get the job done. I don't really care what they are called. I answered you on the "gatekeeping" part. If there is something I like about this community (IT) is that there is way less gatekeeping than any other profession.