5 ms·

Or...you know....as with all technology, just make doing the _right thing_ easier and cheaper. I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertis

Or...you know....as with all technology, just make doing the _right thing_ easier and cheaper. I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertise behind ridiculous rates and tribal knowledge, fwiw. I'd much rather pay for services, incrementally adoptable technology and clear roadmaps.

csomar 5y ago
> I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertise behind ridiculous rates and tribal knowledge, fwiw. Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and you can copy from them. Also, why is it not okay for nerds to command high rates? Doctors do it. Lawyers do it. Politicians do it. And most of them suck at their job, by the way. So if a "hacker" could deliver on his promise, I think paying him a high white-collar rate is quite fair.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and you can copy from them. Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? > Also, why is it not okay for nerds to command high rates? Doctors do it. Lawyers do it. Politicians do it. And most of them suck at their job, by the way. So if a "hacker" could deliver on his promise, I think paying him a high white-collar rate is quite fair. I'm responding almost entirely to the idea that "hardcore nerds" are the people to employ, and "muggles" are not. Paying for expertise is great! But really, as with all technology, I want to pay for people to make things easier for those around them. It strikes me as painfully obvious that, if you're crying out to employ "hardcore nerds" because "muggles" can't handle the work, you're also probably not the type to employ at all, either way. This is just my take, however.
  - Retric 5y ago
    The point is you want hardcore nerds relative to your organization. At the coffee shop level that might just be paying someone 15$ an hour rather than winging it. It’s little different than calling an electrician rather than stringing extension cords everywhere. At the other end, Fortune 500 companies have unique needs which requirer significant expertise. At that level trying to outsource most stuff is perfectly reasonable, but they still need internal talent to avoid being ripped off or suffering major disasters.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      I am again speaking purely about the elitism and arrogance of the phrasing from the original post. In my experience, the absolute best people in a given field aren't even close to what I would call a "hardcore nerd", and those same people would also certainly not condescend to those with different skillsets via referring to them as "muggles". Pay people that have a skillset to do a job. But note that, for most orgs, the job _isn't_ "Do a job and be a dick about it", which is what we've been talking about. Being successful in a role means working with others for a common goal. That's literally what companies are (or, I should say, were meant to be).
      - tomc1985 5y ago
        Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. It was a challenge I accepted and eventually overcame (through great personal turmoil), and now folks are trying to come in and negate it completely because it doesn't fit with their iconoclastic, kumbaya view of the world
        void_mint 5y ago
        > Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc. Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Vrondi 5y ago
    You should employ them, because you run a business that depends on IT that you'd like to keep running without paying protection racket money. Or so I presume. If you enjoy paying a mafia, then by all means, do so.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      I usually employ people that are both technically competent and capable of working on a team and communicating.
      - new_guy 5y ago
        Given your lack of communication skills displayed here you send up more red flags than a matador. The problem is you, not the people you're hiring.
        void_mint 5y ago
        Thanks for the feedback I guess. edit it wasn’t really feedback. Closer to a complaint.
      - oytis 5y ago
        You probably have some negative experience with nerds, but what the poster meant I think is just people with interest and hard skills in computers. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to communicate, it means they should be able to also do other things than communicating.
  - beefield 5y ago
    > Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? Because the referred "hardcore nerds" are only ones who actually bother[1] to figure out what piece of config to copy where? [1] most of what most people think is hardcore nerdiness is just this: https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/
  - csomar 5y ago
    > Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? You employ who can get the job done. I don't really care what they are called. I answered you on the "gatekeeping" part. If there is something I like about this community (IT) is that there is way less gatekeeping than any other profession.
908B64B197 5y ago
> I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertise behind ridiculous rates and tribal knowledge, fwiw. I guess you never worked with lawyers (the top ones) or surgeons. Easy to whine online, harder to raise money, hire the "hardcore nerds" and ship something!
tomc1985 5y ago
> Or...you know....as with all technology, just make doing the _right thing_ easier and cheaper. This has proven, over and over, to make things worse. Important levers get removed because Joe Sixpack can't look at more than a label and a few buttons without freaking out. I'm sick of watching wonderful technology decay to uselessness or annoyance because some rent-seeking wanterpreneur thought he could build a business off expanding the audience for everything
- void_mint 5y ago
  It's been proven, over and over, that making things easier and cheaper harms adoption? I'd love a source on that.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    It increases adoption at the cost of everything turning to shit
    - void_mint 5y ago
      The argument, "Everything being harder and more expensive is better", seems like an obvious troll take. Don't think I'll keep down this thread. Good luck!
      - Vrondi 5y ago
        Everything harder and more expensive is better... in complex, complicated, and intricate systems. We improve tools for brain surgery, yet expertise is still required to do that job. If we dumb that down too much, so that an understanding of the brain is no longer required, there will be a point of outcomes becoming poorer instead of better. The same is true of complex networked systems, storage, and data.
        void_mint 5y ago
        The origins of this post are about the lack of availability/viability/adoption/success with regard to backups. The gripe is that companies don't care enough about it. How would you go about increasing the adoption and success in data management/disaster recovery? Would you make it harder and more expensive, or would you make it cheaper and easier?
msh 5y ago
Well if companies have no special needs they can get Chromebooks and gsuite.
diffeomorphism 5y ago
What are you even trying to argue against? That was the whole point of the previous post. It is already cheap and easy and there is no gatekeeping, ridiculous rates or tribal knowledge. Just hire anyone mildly knowledgeable and do more than nothing. In 2021 there is no excuse anymore. All your vitriol is just based on your projections of your misunderstanding of the phrase "hardcore nerd".

csomar 5y ago

> I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertise behind ridiculous rates and tribal knowledge, fwiw. Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and you can copy from them. Also, why is it not okay for nerds to command high rates? Doctors do it. Lawyers do it. Politicians do it. And most of them suck at their job, by the way. So if a "hacker" could deliver on his promise, I think paying him a high white-collar rate is quite fair.

void_mint 5y ago
> Seriously? Most of the Archlinux/Linux (where nerds congregate) automation and customization stuff is open source. Lots of people sharing their configs, and you can copy from them. Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? > Also, why is it not okay for nerds to command high rates? Doctors do it. Lawyers do it. Politicians do it. And most of them suck at their job, by the way. So if a "hacker" could deliver on his promise, I think paying him a high white-collar rate is quite fair. I'm responding almost entirely to the idea that "hardcore nerds" are the people to employ, and "muggles" are not. Paying for expertise is great! But really, as with all technology, I want to pay for people to make things easier for those around them. It strikes me as painfully obvious that, if you're crying out to employ "hardcore nerds" because "muggles" can't handle the work, you're also probably not the type to employ at all, either way. This is just my take, however.
- Retric 5y ago
  The point is you want hardcore nerds relative to your organization. At the coffee shop level that might just be paying someone 15$ an hour rather than winging it. It’s little different than calling an electrician rather than stringing extension cords everywhere. At the other end, Fortune 500 companies have unique needs which requirer significant expertise. At that level trying to outsource most stuff is perfectly reasonable, but they still need internal talent to avoid being ripped off or suffering major disasters.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    I am again speaking purely about the elitism and arrogance of the phrasing from the original post. In my experience, the absolute best people in a given field aren't even close to what I would call a "hardcore nerd", and those same people would also certainly not condescend to those with different skillsets via referring to them as "muggles". Pay people that have a skillset to do a job. But note that, for most orgs, the job _isn't_ "Do a job and be a dick about it", which is what we've been talking about. Being successful in a role means working with others for a common goal. That's literally what companies are (or, I should say, were meant to be).
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. It was a challenge I accepted and eventually overcame (through great personal turmoil), and now folks are trying to come in and negate it completely because it doesn't fit with their iconoclastic, kumbaya view of the world
      - void_mint 5y ago
        > Elitism, arrogance, gatekeeping... could you be any more woke?? I don't care if you think I'm woke or not. What does that matter? > In other trades these things are virtues. Growing up they were the name of the game in computing too. Spoken like a person that has never even spent a moment of their life around a tradesperson. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of legitimized apprenticeship. Find me a trade that doesn't have some form of certification process. Certified solutions to common problems. When necessary, permits, approvals, etc. Software is nothing like that. "Hardcore nerds" build random unmaintainable workflows and then put other people in tough spots (note: not specific to "hardcore nerds").
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Vrondi 5y ago
  You should employ them, because you run a business that depends on IT that you'd like to keep running without paying protection racket money. Or so I presume. If you enjoy paying a mafia, then by all means, do so.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    I usually employ people that are both technically competent and capable of working on a team and communicating.
    - new_guy 5y ago
      Given your lack of communication skills displayed here you send up more red flags than a matador. The problem is you, not the people you're hiring.
      - void_mint 5y ago
        Thanks for the feedback I guess. edit it wasn’t really feedback. Closer to a complaint.
    - oytis 5y ago
      You probably have some negative experience with nerds, but what the poster meant I think is just people with interest and hard skills in computers. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to communicate, it means they should be able to also do other things than communicating.
- beefield 5y ago
  > Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? Because the referred "hardcore nerds" are only ones who actually bother[1] to figure out what piece of config to copy where? [1] most of what most people think is hardcore nerdiness is just this: https://xkcd.com/627/ https://xkcd.com/627/
- csomar 5y ago
  > Yep! So tell me again why I should employ what the previous poster referred to as "hardcore nerds"? You employ who can get the job done. I don't really care what they are called. I answered you on the "gatekeeping" part. If there is something I like about this community (IT) is that there is way less gatekeeping than any other profession.

908B64B197 5y ago

> I don't want to hire the "hardcore nerds" that gatekeep expertise behind ridiculous rates and tribal knowledge, fwiw. I guess you never worked with lawyers (the top ones) or surgeons. Easy to whine online, harder to raise money, hire the "hardcore nerds" and ship something!

tomc1985 5y ago

> Or...you know....as with all technology, just make doing the _right thing_ easier and cheaper. This has proven, over and over, to make things worse. Important levers get removed because Joe Sixpack can't look at more than a label and a few buttons without freaking out. I'm sick of watching wonderful technology decay to uselessness or annoyance because some rent-seeking wanterpreneur thought he could build a business off expanding the audience for everything

void_mint 5y ago
It's been proven, over and over, that making things easier and cheaper harms adoption? I'd love a source on that.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  It increases adoption at the cost of everything turning to shit
  - void_mint 5y ago
    The argument, "Everything being harder and more expensive is better", seems like an obvious troll take. Don't think I'll keep down this thread. Good luck!
    - Vrondi 5y ago
      Everything harder and more expensive is better... in complex, complicated, and intricate systems. We improve tools for brain surgery, yet expertise is still required to do that job. If we dumb that down too much, so that an understanding of the brain is no longer required, there will be a point of outcomes becoming poorer instead of better. The same is true of complex networked systems, storage, and data.
      - void_mint 5y ago
        The origins of this post are about the lack of availability/viability/adoption/success with regard to backups. The gripe is that companies don't care enough about it. How would you go about increasing the adoption and success in data management/disaster recovery? Would you make it harder and more expensive, or would you make it cheaper and easier?

msh 5y ago

Well if companies have no special needs they can get Chromebooks and gsuite.

diffeomorphism 5y ago

What are you even trying to argue against? That was the whole point of the previous post. It is already cheap and easy and there is no gatekeeping, ridiculous rates or tribal knowledge. Just hire anyone mildly knowledgeable and do more than nothing. In 2021 there is no excuse anymore. All your vitriol is just based on your projections of your misunderstanding of the phrase "hardcore nerd".