6 ms·

Can you be sued for asking questions?

by dqpb 5y ago

Ajay-p 5y ago
IANAL but my gut tells me no, unless you're in a place like Russia, North Korea, China, most of the Middle East, parts of Africa and Latin America, and some parts of the former Soviet Bloc. In western nations, you might get arrested for asking questions if it upsets the powers that be and they deem you a nuisance.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  In UK you have a chance to end up with a "hate crime" if you don't follow the official line of (no)thinking(with a low change of being arrested). Pretty crazy stuff going on lately(past few years).
  - peteretep 5y ago
    Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?
    - ghoward 5y ago
      Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.
      - AlexMoffat 5y ago
        For what possible reason are you asking that question of anyone?
        kxkdkkf 5y ago
        Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv > In 2018, Yaniv filed discrimination complaints with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal against multiple waxing salons alleging that they refused to provide genital waxing to her because she is transgender.[15][16] Yaniv's case was the first major case of alleged transgender discrimination in retail in Canada.[17] Yaniv was seeking as much as $15,000 in damages from each beautician.[18] In their defence, estheticians said they lacked training on waxing male genitalia and they were not comfortable doing so for personal or religious reasons.[19] They further argued that being transgender was not the issue for them, rather having male genitalia was.[20] Yaniv rejected the claim that special training in waxing male genitalia was necessary,[21] and during the hearings equated the denial of the service to neo-Nazism.[22][16] Respondents were typically working from home, were non-white,[23] and were immigrants[24] who did not speak English. Two of the businesses were forced to shut down due to the complaints.[25] Just one example..
        chc 5y ago
        More like "just the one example." This same case is trotted out every time somebody wants to make this point because it does not actually seem to be a trend. But besides that, it doesn't answer the question you were responding to. Asking someone's birth sex does not tell you what genitalia they have. It doesn't even really tell you what genitalia they had at birth. Since those salon owners say they specifically objected to the woman's current genitalia rather than the woman's status as transgender, birth sex is the wrong question to ask.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. Then you’d probably want to ask “What kind of genitalia do you currently possess”. Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that, for reasons very similar to why current gender identity isn't.
        kortilla 5y ago
        > Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that You might want to rethink that phrasing, because it’s a very reliable indicator. That’s the entire problem. <1% of the population have genitalia that doesn’t match their sex assigned at birth. Asking someone “what genitalia they currently posses” is more offensive because it sound like you’re talking about an accessory that people swap out on whim. “Which will you be carrying with you today? The penis or the vagina?”
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > > Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that > You might want to rethink that phrasing, because it’s a very reliable indicator In the context where current gender identity is an insufficiently reliable indicator, which is the context of the supposed need to ask the question, no, it is not. If you need to probe beyond current gender identity because your personal sensitivities about genitalia can tolerate no error, then you need also to bypass indirect proxies entirely and ask the question you are actually concerned about regarding genitalia.
- Ajay-p 5y ago
  Based on the discussions therein I can see where my thinking was not quite on point, or I did not explain myself properly. YES a question could be a a form of a hate crime, I can think of examples where asking someone a question that be interpreted (probably rightfully) as a hate crime. I was thinking more of non-hateful questions, such as questioning authority.
dpifke 5y ago
You can be sued by anyone, for anything, at any time. Whether or not that lawsuit has any merit is irrelevant. With certain exceptions based on subject matter (e.g. SLAPP) or jurisdiction, it still costs money to hire a lawyer to defend against the suit.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  I don't think that's how things work in most European countries. Yes, there are costs but they will be covered by the loser. No way this person loses against these particular fraudsters
  - remram 5y ago
    Some countries are also sensible to abuse of the legal system to this end, e.g. Lenovo had to pay 20,000 EUR in damages after they decided to drag the case of a consumer who wanted his 42 EUR Windows license refunded: https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.en.html https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.en.html
  - askonomm 5y ago
    Also, a lot of the cases these lawsuits in EU countries are thrown out because of how absurd they are.
    - menzoic 5y ago
      It still cost time and money to get to that point
  - Archelaos 5y ago
    The situation in the EU in general is all but satisfactory, especially for investigative journalism. There exists a term for it: SLAPP – Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. There is currently an initiative of a group of European MEPs underway for better anti-SLAPP legislation in the EU member states. You may read more about the SLAPP problem in this article, published by the European Centre for Press and Media Freedom: https://www.ecpmf.eu/slapp-the-background-of-strategic-lawsuits-against-public-participation/ https://www.ecpmf.eu/slapp-the-background-of-strategic-lawsu...
injidup 5y ago
I have an amusing letter from the lawyers working for powerinsole threatening legal action for asking questions and that I should remove all my comments from social media. It was also demanded that I pay approx 350 euro that the letter cost to write. My response was to invest in the cost of the device, tear it down on video and post the analysis to facebook. That was more than 6 months ago. I have not heard from the lawyer since. I'll happily go to court with a printed t-shirt with the text "where is the battery?" but it won't come to that I guess.
- 1MachineElf 5y ago
  Is that a public post? Would love to read it.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  Sounds like something BigClive would be interested in.
MikeTheGreat 5y ago
I would kinda hope that phrasing stuff as a question wouldn't affect the viability of a lawsuit one way or the other. Otherwise I'd expect people to leak trade secrets as a series of questions, leak top secret info as a series of questions, etc. I kinda hope it's the underlying substance, not how you phrase it, that determines this sort of thing :)
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
You can be sued for anything, or nothing. You might be able to "easily" win the case, which may still cost you resources that you may not want to expend, and you won't be reimbursed for the stress and time used, only the financial expenses (and even that isn't true in all jurisdictions). That said, if you know the legal situation, demonstrating that you're not afraid of the legal threats is often the way to make them go away. For security research, if the goal of the legal threat is to prevent you from publishing your results for the first time... publishing the results can significantly reduce the incentive to cause you further trouble because the goal is no longer achievable.

Can you be sued for asking questions?

by dqpb 5y ago

Can you be sued for asking questions?

IANAL but my gut tells me no, unless you're in a place like Russia, North Korea, China, most of the Middle East, parts of Africa and Latin America, and some parts of the former Soviet Bloc. In western nations, you might get arrested for asking questions if it upsets the powers that be and they deem you a nuisance.

White_Wolf 5y ago
In UK you have a chance to end up with a "hate crime" if you don't follow the official line of (no)thinking(with a low change of being arrested). Pretty crazy stuff going on lately(past few years).
- peteretep 5y ago
  Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?
  - ghoward 5y ago
    Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.
    - AlexMoffat 5y ago
      For what possible reason are you asking that question of anyone?
      - kxkdkkf 5y ago
        Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv > In 2018, Yaniv filed discrimination complaints with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal against multiple waxing salons alleging that they refused to provide genital waxing to her because she is transgender.[15][16] Yaniv's case was the first major case of alleged transgender discrimination in retail in Canada.[17] Yaniv was seeking as much as $15,000 in damages from each beautician.[18] In their defence, estheticians said they lacked training on waxing male genitalia and they were not comfortable doing so for personal or religious reasons.[19] They further argued that being transgender was not the issue for them, rather having male genitalia was.[20] Yaniv rejected the claim that special training in waxing male genitalia was necessary,[21] and during the hearings equated the denial of the service to neo-Nazism.[22][16] Respondents were typically working from home, were non-white,[23] and were immigrants[24] who did not speak English. Two of the businesses were forced to shut down due to the complaints.[25] Just one example..
        chc 5y ago
        More like "just the one example." This same case is trotted out every time somebody wants to make this point because it does not actually seem to be a trend. But besides that, it doesn't answer the question you were responding to. Asking someone's birth sex does not tell you what genitalia they have. It doesn't even really tell you what genitalia they had at birth. Since those salon owners say they specifically objected to the woman's current genitalia rather than the woman's status as transgender, birth sex is the wrong question to ask.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. Then you’d probably want to ask “What kind of genitalia do you currently possess”. Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that, for reasons very similar to why current gender identity isn't.
        kortilla 5y ago
        > Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that You might want to rethink that phrasing, because it’s a very reliable indicator. That’s the entire problem. <1% of the population have genitalia that doesn’t match their sex assigned at birth. Asking someone “what genitalia they currently posses” is more offensive because it sound like you’re talking about an accessory that people swap out on whim. “Which will you be carrying with you today? The penis or the vagina?”
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > > Sex assigned at birth is not a reliable indicator of that > You might want to rethink that phrasing, because it’s a very reliable indicator In the context where current gender identity is an insufficiently reliable indicator, which is the context of the supposed need to ask the question, no, it is not. If you need to probe beyond current gender identity because your personal sensitivities about genitalia can tolerate no error, then you need also to bypass indirect proxies entirely and ask the question you are actually concerned about regarding genitalia.
Ajay-p 5y ago
Based on the discussions therein I can see where my thinking was not quite on point, or I did not explain myself properly. YES a question could be a a form of a hate crime, I can think of examples where asking someone a question that be interpreted (probably rightfully) as a hate crime. I was thinking more of non-hateful questions, such as questioning authority.

dpifke 5y ago

You can be sued by anyone, for anything, at any time. Whether or not that lawsuit has any merit is irrelevant. With certain exceptions based on subject matter (e.g. SLAPP) or jurisdiction, it still costs money to hire a lawyer to defend against the suit.

beebeepka 5y ago
I don't think that's how things work in most European countries. Yes, there are costs but they will be covered by the loser. No way this person loses against these particular fraudsters
- remram 5y ago
  Some countries are also sensible to abuse of the legal system to this end, e.g. Lenovo had to pay 20,000 EUR in damages after they decided to drag the case of a consumer who wanted his 42 EUR Windows license refunded: https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.en.html https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.en.html
- askonomm 5y ago
  Also, a lot of the cases these lawsuits in EU countries are thrown out because of how absurd they are.
  - menzoic 5y ago
    It still cost time and money to get to that point
- Archelaos 5y ago
  The situation in the EU in general is all but satisfactory, especially for investigative journalism. There exists a term for it: SLAPP – Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. There is currently an initiative of a group of European MEPs underway for better anti-SLAPP legislation in the EU member states. You may read more about the SLAPP problem in this article, published by the European Centre for Press and Media Freedom: https://www.ecpmf.eu/slapp-the-background-of-strategic-lawsuits-against-public-participation/ https://www.ecpmf.eu/slapp-the-background-of-strategic-lawsu...

injidup 5y ago

I have an amusing letter from the lawyers working for powerinsole threatening legal action for asking questions and that I should remove all my comments from social media. It was also demanded that I pay approx 350 euro that the letter cost to write. My response was to invest in the cost of the device, tear it down on video and post the analysis to facebook. That was more than 6 months ago. I have not heard from the lawyer since. I'll happily go to court with a printed t-shirt with the text "where is the battery?" but it won't come to that I guess.

1MachineElf 5y ago
Is that a public post? Would love to read it.
mnw21cam 5y ago
Sounds like something BigClive would be interested in.

MikeTheGreat 5y ago

I would kinda hope that phrasing stuff as a question wouldn't affect the viability of a lawsuit one way or the other. Otherwise I'd expect people to leak trade secrets as a series of questions, leak top secret info as a series of questions, etc. I kinda hope it's the underlying substance, not how you phrase it, that determines this sort of thing :)

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

You can be sued for anything, or nothing. You might be able to "easily" win the case, which may still cost you resources that you may not want to expend, and you won't be reimbursed for the stress and time used, only the financial expenses (and even that isn't true in all jurisdictions). That said, if you know the legal situation, demonstrating that you're not afraid of the legal threats is often the way to make them go away. For security research, if the goal of the legal threat is to prevent you from publishing your results for the first time... publishing the results can significantly reduce the incentive to cause you further trouble because the goal is no longer achievable.