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We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. It is why mass surveillance

We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. It is why mass surveillance exist in the first place, to foster collective conformity. Unfortunately we are prone to accept authoritarianism these days. The more economical and ecological uncertainties there are the more we desire order and stability, no matter the cost. For many having to look the other way is a small price to pay.

krapp 5y ago
> We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. I don't see many people suppressing non-conformist opinions anywhere. Rather, I see people defiantly shouting their non-conformist opinions from the rooftops at every opportunity. Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on anything.
- smichel17 5y ago
  I do.
  - krapp 5y ago
    Chances are any non-conformist beliefs you have (assuming they're legal,) have their own subreddits, Twitter tags, Facebook groups, Youtube videos, etc, so that's probably just you.
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Most of these are anonymous platforms where people are unafraid to speak their mind due to that anonymity. Also the existence of loud people on these platforms isn't evidence that the number of people self-censoring hasn't increased. A small, loud group of people is enough to create the effect that you see. Polling suggests that the number of people self-censoring has increased. It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise.
      - krapp 5y ago
        It is circumstantial evidence, but I wouldn't expect an increase in radical activity on social media to occur in a society in which most people are afraid to express their views due to fear of omnipresent surveillance. Some people are self-suppressing, a lot of people aren't. And what is it that people are afraid to say? That they only believe in two genders, or innate gender roles? That the US should return to the gold standard? That they don't trust the consensus on COVID vaccinations? Most people's "radical" beliefs aren't that radical, and the truly radical beliefs (white supremacy, anti-semitism, violent revolutionary ideology, pro-pedophilia) have always been suppressed by society, so the existence of the surveillance state changes nothing in those cases. >It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise. I'm not aware of any mainstream Conservative beliefs that are suppressed in general discourse, or that would lead someone to lose their job. I don't think many people have ever been fired for believing in limited government or the free market. Conservatives have an entire political party and half a country that supports and welcomes their beliefs, and plenty of businesses that would hire them because of those beliefs.
        fighterpilot 5y ago
        This[1] is a survey of college students. About 25-30% are self-censoring on campus, and rates are higher among conservatives. This is a pretty well established finding across multiple polls of both college-age and working-age people. > I'm not aware of any mainstream Conservative beliefs that are suppressed in general discourse Not in "general discourse" (if by that you mean anonymous social media), but if you work for a tech company, many mainstream conservative beliefs are not to be discussed in public. Consider the James Damore memo, which he got fired for and which most conservatives would agree with. Or imagine being a Trump supporter in a tech company, and wanting to put a Trump poster on your wall/cubicle compared to a Biden/Hillary poster. You might not get fired, but there's enough stories of social ostracism that people probably won't want to do that. Or consider having the opinion that gender = sex and therefore pronouns should correspond to sex, which is what most conservatives think, and something that they'd get fired over. Self-censorship is a rational thing to do in such a climate. A left-leaning person would probably self-censor in a heavily conservative industry (e.g. oil & gas), too. I don't really have a reference point in such industries about how stifling the climate would be for them, but I don't think this is a phenomenon that's unique to one side of the spectrum. It's mostly a consequence of heightened polarization. [1] https://2cnzc91figkyqqeq8390pgd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/HxA-CES-Report-Fall-2019-FINAL.pdf https://2cnzc91figkyqqeq8390pgd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
    - smichel17 5y ago
      So, here's the thing: it's not the beliefs themselves, it's where the political lines are drawn. Like: let's pick two hot-button political issues in the US. Say, abortion rights and gun control. You can definitely find online spaces that are pro-choice and spaces which are pro-life. You can find spaces which are pro 2nd amendment and pro gun-control. You're going to be much harder pressed to find spaces which are pro-2nd AND pro-choice, or pro-gun-control AND pro-life. So yes— there are absolutely places where I could express my beliefs that cross political lines. But I couldn't do it as myself. Or at least, I'm not willing to.
- Comevius 5y ago
  Disinformation and propaganda don't yield democratic resilience, usually there is an authority figure behind them and believers who conform for the certainty, stability, simplicity. These opinions don't require privacy, on the contrary they depend on the network effect. I'm talking about things like how the ethic of responsibility and academic freedom is in decline. For example when it comes to mass surveillance computer scientists and cryptographers are culpable. https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1162 https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1162 "A creeping surveillance that grows organically in the public and private sectors, that becomes increasingly comprehensive, entwined, and predictive, that becomes an instrument for assasination, political control, and the maintenance of power - well, this vision doesn't merely seem possible, it seems to be happening before our eyes."
- naasking 5y ago
  > Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on anything. Just because the street corner is still populated by the crazies shouting about the end times, doesn't meant ordinary people aren't suppressing their own opinions around the water cooler.

krapp 5y ago

> We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. I don't see many people suppressing non-conformist opinions anywhere. Rather, I see people defiantly shouting their non-conformist opinions from the rooftops at every opportunity. Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on anything.

smichel17 5y ago
I do.
- krapp 5y ago
  Chances are any non-conformist beliefs you have (assuming they're legal,) have their own subreddits, Twitter tags, Facebook groups, Youtube videos, etc, so that's probably just you.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Most of these are anonymous platforms where people are unafraid to speak their mind due to that anonymity. Also the existence of loud people on these platforms isn't evidence that the number of people self-censoring hasn't increased. A small, loud group of people is enough to create the effect that you see. Polling suggests that the number of people self-censoring has increased. It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise.
    - krapp 5y ago
      It is circumstantial evidence, but I wouldn't expect an increase in radical activity on social media to occur in a society in which most people are afraid to express their views due to fear of omnipresent surveillance. Some people are self-suppressing, a lot of people aren't. And what is it that people are afraid to say? That they only believe in two genders, or innate gender roles? That the US should return to the gold standard? That they don't trust the consensus on COVID vaccinations? Most people's "radical" beliefs aren't that radical, and the truly radical beliefs (white supremacy, anti-semitism, violent revolutionary ideology, pro-pedophilia) have always been suppressed by society, so the existence of the surveillance state changes nothing in those cases. >It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise. I'm not aware of any mainstream Conservative beliefs that are suppressed in general discourse, or that would lead someone to lose their job. I don't think many people have ever been fired for believing in limited government or the free market. Conservatives have an entire political party and half a country that supports and welcomes their beliefs, and plenty of businesses that would hire them because of those beliefs.
      - fighterpilot 5y ago
        This[1] is a survey of college students. About 25-30% are self-censoring on campus, and rates are higher among conservatives. This is a pretty well established finding across multiple polls of both college-age and working-age people. > I'm not aware of any mainstream Conservative beliefs that are suppressed in general discourse Not in "general discourse" (if by that you mean anonymous social media), but if you work for a tech company, many mainstream conservative beliefs are not to be discussed in public. Consider the James Damore memo, which he got fired for and which most conservatives would agree with. Or imagine being a Trump supporter in a tech company, and wanting to put a Trump poster on your wall/cubicle compared to a Biden/Hillary poster. You might not get fired, but there's enough stories of social ostracism that people probably won't want to do that. Or consider having the opinion that gender = sex and therefore pronouns should correspond to sex, which is what most conservatives think, and something that they'd get fired over. Self-censorship is a rational thing to do in such a climate. A left-leaning person would probably self-censor in a heavily conservative industry (e.g. oil & gas), too. I don't really have a reference point in such industries about how stifling the climate would be for them, but I don't think this is a phenomenon that's unique to one side of the spectrum. It's mostly a consequence of heightened polarization. [1] https://2cnzc91figkyqqeq8390pgd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/HxA-CES-Report-Fall-2019-FINAL.pdf https://2cnzc91figkyqqeq8390pgd1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
  - smichel17 5y ago
    So, here's the thing: it's not the beliefs themselves, it's where the political lines are drawn. Like: let's pick two hot-button political issues in the US. Say, abortion rights and gun control. You can definitely find online spaces that are pro-choice and spaces which are pro-life. You can find spaces which are pro 2nd amendment and pro gun-control. You're going to be much harder pressed to find spaces which are pro-2nd AND pro-choice, or pro-gun-control AND pro-life. So yes— there are absolutely places where I could express my beliefs that cross political lines. But I couldn't do it as myself. Or at least, I'm not willing to.
Comevius 5y ago
Disinformation and propaganda don't yield democratic resilience, usually there is an authority figure behind them and believers who conform for the certainty, stability, simplicity. These opinions don't require privacy, on the contrary they depend on the network effect. I'm talking about things like how the ethic of responsibility and academic freedom is in decline. For example when it comes to mass surveillance computer scientists and cryptographers are culpable. https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1162 https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1162 "A creeping surveillance that grows organically in the public and private sectors, that becomes increasingly comprehensive, entwined, and predictive, that becomes an instrument for assasination, political control, and the maintenance of power - well, this vision doesn't merely seem possible, it seems to be happening before our eyes."
naasking 5y ago
> Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on anything. Just because the street corner is still populated by the crazies shouting about the end times, doesn't meant ordinary people aren't suppressing their own opinions around the water cooler.