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Node.js + clojurescript just came up in the Demo. Part of me says awesome, another part says "How many hipster programmer brains blew up" <_<. Overall I'm exci

Node.js + clojurescript just came up in the Demo. Part of me says awesome, another part says "How many hipster programmer brains blew up" <_<. Overall I'm excited about this and anxious to see how far it can be taken, because if you can write an ENTIRE webapp in clojure is thought provoking.

fogus 15y ago
Node.js is the pragmatic choice for ClojureScript command line apps. One of Clojure's weaknesses was that the JVM was not a great choice for these types of scripts. ClojureScript + Node.js effectively solves this problem.
- runevault 15y ago
  Oh I fully agree with that, and even if we got NOTHING else from this that would be cool. I just can't help from finding some humor in the idea as well.
- technomancy 15y ago
  I don't understand; why bring a web framework into it for command-line work? Is it just that straight-up V8 has a crappy CLI experience?
  - fogus 15y ago
    Web framework? Do you mean Google Closure? If so, bear in mind that the compilation phase will remove unused code, so you're not forced to carry any of it with you if you never use it in your code. As for Node, you do not need it I suppose, but I do not have experience using straight-up V8.
    - technomancy 15y ago
      Right, I was talking about node. It sounds like perhaps node has had more people polishing the command-line tools? Stuff that probably belongs in V8, but goes in node because it's a more openly-developed project? The mention of node just seemed a little out of place at first glance.
      - fogus 15y ago
        I only mentioned Node because the parent post did, but as for the reason it was chosen for the target of the first round is because it's definitely got the polish as far as libs, installation experience, etc. go.
    - deleted 15y ago
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    - deleted 15y ago
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  - sjs 15y ago
    Node isn't a web framework, it's more of unixy, network oriented stdlib for v8.
  - bashwort 15y ago
    I'm no expert here but I think Node gives you the ability to convey command-line args to JavaScript out of the box. From the brief research I have done, it appears that you need to write a C wrapper to do this with V8. If the JavaScript does not require command-line args, it will run just fine with V8.
xiaoqmanee 15y ago
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felideon 15y ago
I'm glad for the Clojure community if this didn't exist before, but I'm pretty sure Lispers (ie Common Lispers) have written "entire" web apps in Lisp for quite a while[1]. For example, Kenny Tilton wrote a Lisp wrapper to qooxdoo on top of his data-flow library (Cells). The only time we need to write JS code now is for additional glue for widgets or functionality we haven't wrapped yet. And since it wraps qooxdoo, this means not writing (or needing to know) a lick of HTML/CSS. We just write Lisp. And we persist data to a triple store that "shapes" the Lisp/qooxdoo code at runtime. </smug> [1] I want to say "years" but I'm not sure how many people have used CL to write "entire" web apps.
- gfodor 15y ago
  I notice you keep replying about Parenscript, but the difference here is important. The reason this is a bigger deal than you make it out to be is because Clojure is hosted on the JVM. That means it's generally had a chance to enter the enterprise, and beyond that, has access to the entire JVM library and interop. What this means now is, for the first time, you can write Clojure code on the server, interop with legacy Java code or well-tested libraries, and then write Clojure code on the client, full stack. This, as far as I know, is a pretty big game changer since it allows you to write a full-stack web application that is part of the Java ecosystem in a single language that happens to not suck either. Edit: To clarify, I'm sure there are other JVM lisps, and other Javascript lisps. But this is the first one that is both, I'd wager. This is important.
  - felideon 15y ago
    So the only reason it's a big deal is because it's Clojure? It was only a matter of time this library was written by somebody. Edit: I guess this somebody also happens to be Rich Hickey. Indeed it would be a big deal if John McCarthy had written Parenscript. :D
  - Tiomaidh 15y ago
    To play devil's advocate, wouldn't the exact same thing be possible with the above alternatives and Armed Bear Common Lisp? You can write full-stack in Common Lisp, it's just that different parts need to go through different compilers/interpreters/transformers/what-have-you. Just as it is with Clojure. No, I think the thing to note here is that Clojure--for reasons I can only guess at--has a lot more sex appeal than CL.
kodablah 15y ago
I made something that may give you the same reaction: https://github.com/cretz/gwt-node https://github.com/cretz/gwt-node. It was fun to do, but not sure how practical it is.

fogus 15y ago

Node.js is the pragmatic choice for ClojureScript command line apps. One of Clojure's weaknesses was that the JVM was not a great choice for these types of scripts. ClojureScript + Node.js effectively solves this problem.

runevault 15y ago
Oh I fully agree with that, and even if we got NOTHING else from this that would be cool. I just can't help from finding some humor in the idea as well.
technomancy 15y ago
I don't understand; why bring a web framework into it for command-line work? Is it just that straight-up V8 has a crappy CLI experience?
- fogus 15y ago
  Web framework? Do you mean Google Closure? If so, bear in mind that the compilation phase will remove unused code, so you're not forced to carry any of it with you if you never use it in your code. As for Node, you do not need it I suppose, but I do not have experience using straight-up V8.
  - technomancy 15y ago
    Right, I was talking about node. It sounds like perhaps node has had more people polishing the command-line tools? Stuff that probably belongs in V8, but goes in node because it's a more openly-developed project? The mention of node just seemed a little out of place at first glance.
    - fogus 15y ago
      I only mentioned Node because the parent post did, but as for the reason it was chosen for the target of the first round is because it's definitely got the polish as far as libs, installation experience, etc. go.
  - deleted 15y ago
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  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- sjs 15y ago
  Node isn't a web framework, it's more of unixy, network oriented stdlib for v8.
- bashwort 15y ago
  I'm no expert here but I think Node gives you the ability to convey command-line args to JavaScript out of the box. From the brief research I have done, it appears that you need to write a C wrapper to do this with V8. If the JavaScript does not require command-line args, it will run just fine with V8.

xiaoqmanee 15y ago

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felideon 15y ago

I'm glad for the Clojure community if this didn't exist before, but I'm pretty sure Lispers (ie Common Lispers) have written "entire" web apps in Lisp for quite a while[1]. For example, Kenny Tilton wrote a Lisp wrapper to qooxdoo on top of his data-flow library (Cells). The only time we need to write JS code now is for additional glue for widgets or functionality we haven't wrapped yet. And since it wraps qooxdoo, this means not writing (or needing to know) a lick of HTML/CSS. We just write Lisp. And we persist data to a triple store that "shapes" the Lisp/qooxdoo code at runtime. </smug> [1] I want to say "years" but I'm not sure how many people have used CL to write "entire" web apps.

gfodor 15y ago
I notice you keep replying about Parenscript, but the difference here is important. The reason this is a bigger deal than you make it out to be is because Clojure is hosted on the JVM. That means it's generally had a chance to enter the enterprise, and beyond that, has access to the entire JVM library and interop. What this means now is, for the first time, you can write Clojure code on the server, interop with legacy Java code or well-tested libraries, and then write Clojure code on the client, full stack. This, as far as I know, is a pretty big game changer since it allows you to write a full-stack web application that is part of the Java ecosystem in a single language that happens to not suck either. Edit: To clarify, I'm sure there are other JVM lisps, and other Javascript lisps. But this is the first one that is both, I'd wager. This is important.
- felideon 15y ago
  So the only reason it's a big deal is because it's Clojure? It was only a matter of time this library was written by somebody. Edit: I guess this somebody also happens to be Rich Hickey. Indeed it would be a big deal if John McCarthy had written Parenscript. :D
- Tiomaidh 15y ago
  To play devil's advocate, wouldn't the exact same thing be possible with the above alternatives and Armed Bear Common Lisp? You can write full-stack in Common Lisp, it's just that different parts need to go through different compilers/interpreters/transformers/what-have-you. Just as it is with Clojure. No, I think the thing to note here is that Clojure--for reasons I can only guess at--has a lot more sex appeal than CL.

kodablah 15y ago

I made something that may give you the same reaction: https://github.com/cretz/gwt-node https://github.com/cretz/gwt-node. It was fun to do, but not sure how practical it is.