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I really think your specific political leanings are deeply clouding your view of things. People on the side X have conversations with other people on the same s

I really think your specific political leanings are deeply clouding your view of things. People on the side X have conversations with other people on the same side about all topics and discuss the finer points. That is true for both sides. People on side X can't have any conversation with people on side Y about any of the topics because both sides just instantly devolve into tribalism and accusing the other side of being unreasonable. Which is exactly what you're doing, and what you're saying the left does to you I don't know where you're getting "30 years ago". It's worse today than ever across both sides.

rayiner 5y ago
My politics are middle of the road by normal people standards. Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” (This is a position that’s not only pretty widely held in America, but would be axiomatic in Bangladesh where I’m from and most other countries as well. As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing. I’m not sure.) Talking with college-educated conservatives and expressing similarly normie liberal takes, like “we should let gay people get married” is by contrast not hard at all. I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. But that’s really my point. Urban liberals have embraced a worldview (especially on social issues) that’s as ideologically fervent as what I remember about evangelical Christians during the Bush era.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” Weird, in my bubble (mostly college-educated, mostly urban-to-suburban, mostly liberal-to-progressive, though there are many exceptions on every axis), that wouldn’t even be a controversial statement (once you got into mechanisms of limitation and more specific cultural concerns such as what kind of drift you wanted to avoid, there would be debate, though, both over principles and pragmatics.) > As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related. > I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. Huh, I can find plenty of college educated, urban California religious conservatives (not necessarily evangelicals) who see it that way without much effort. (Like, zero effort when I go to church.)
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related They’re often correlated, but one doesn’t arise out of the other. Us Bangladeshis have a strong tendency to blame our culture for what ails our country (our tendency to corruption, etc.) If an American said “I wouldn’t want mass immigration from Bangladesh to the US because of the prospect of cultural change” I’d probably be inclined to agree. My family left the country to get away from that culture. In Bangladesh it wouldn’t be a controversial statement to say that there are aspects of Chinese culture or whatever that we don’t like. So when I see Trump attacked as “racist” I find it bizarre. His criticisms are plainly directed at culture, not race. For example his comment about “shit hole countries.” That’s a boorish phrasing of the situation, but it’s clearly an attack on culture, not race. If you asked a Bangladeshi on the street whether they’d rather have immigrants from they’d say something similar. The state of a country is a reflection of the culture of its people. It has nothing to do with race.
- esrauch 5y ago
  Your "bubble" is either extremists or jerks or your perception is warped. I've literally never met a person who doesn't think we should control immigration. The culture war is being fought on small edge cases like DACA, not "open borders". I've met people who definitely would believe someone saying "we need to protect American culture" was thinly veiled code for "we need to protect white culture, and not just from immigrants". And I've met people who do mean that and are racist/antisemitic and not in the "deep south". And I've also met people who said the same words but without the racist underlying beliefs, so it's not really so simple.

rayiner 5y ago

My politics are middle of the road by normal people standards. Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” (This is a position that’s not only pretty widely held in America, but would be axiomatic in Bangladesh where I’m from and most other countries as well. As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing. I’m not sure.) Talking with college-educated conservatives and expressing similarly normie liberal takes, like “we should let gay people get married” is by contrast not hard at all. I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. But that’s really my point. Urban liberals have embraced a worldview (especially on social issues) that’s as ideologically fervent as what I remember about evangelical Christians during the Bush era.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Among people in my bubble (college-educated urban liberals), it’s very difficult to discuss completely normie takes like “we should control immigration to limit cultural change.” Weird, in my bubble (mostly college-educated, mostly urban-to-suburban, mostly liberal-to-progressive, though there are many exceptions on every axis), that wouldn’t even be a controversial statement (once you got into mechanisms of limitation and more specific cultural concerns such as what kind of drift you wanted to avoid, there would be debate, though, both over principles and pragmatics.) > As far as I can tell, many American liberals think race and culture are the same thing They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related. > I would have to go out of my way to find some evangelicals in the Deep South who won’t even discuss the idea and dismiss it as “blasphemy” or some such. Huh, I can find plenty of college educated, urban California religious conservatives (not necessarily evangelicals) who see it that way without much effort. (Like, zero effort when I go to church.)
- rayiner 5y ago
  > They aren’t the same thing, though they are (contrart to racist models) very closely related They’re often correlated, but one doesn’t arise out of the other. Us Bangladeshis have a strong tendency to blame our culture for what ails our country (our tendency to corruption, etc.) If an American said “I wouldn’t want mass immigration from Bangladesh to the US because of the prospect of cultural change” I’d probably be inclined to agree. My family left the country to get away from that culture. In Bangladesh it wouldn’t be a controversial statement to say that there are aspects of Chinese culture or whatever that we don’t like. So when I see Trump attacked as “racist” I find it bizarre. His criticisms are plainly directed at culture, not race. For example his comment about “shit hole countries.” That’s a boorish phrasing of the situation, but it’s clearly an attack on culture, not race. If you asked a Bangladeshi on the street whether they’d rather have immigrants from they’d say something similar. The state of a country is a reflection of the culture of its people. It has nothing to do with race.
esrauch 5y ago
Your "bubble" is either extremists or jerks or your perception is warped. I've literally never met a person who doesn't think we should control immigration. The culture war is being fought on small edge cases like DACA, not "open borders". I've met people who definitely would believe someone saying "we need to protect American culture" was thinly veiled code for "we need to protect white culture, and not just from immigrants". And I've met people who do mean that and are racist/antisemitic and not in the "deep south". And I've also met people who said the same words but without the racist underlying beliefs, so it's not really so simple.