6 ms·

The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want or with the tradeoffs you want while the truth settles out, but I think these claims t

The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want or with the tradeoffs you want while the truth settles out, but I think these claims that it doesn’t work are hasty. Furthermore there isn’t a better alternative. Right now censorship from platform owners is abusively used to skew political discussions, using the pretense of factuality. I regularly see fact checkers make mistakes or make misleading claims or they inconsistent apply scrutiny. I see trusted organizations like old newspapers and health organizations (like the WHO) regularly make mistakes or sell their own speculation as incontrovertible truth. Trust cannot be given to a few lone entities. The marketplace of ideas doesn’t have this problem since it is decentralized.

mandmandam 5y ago
>The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want I'm astounded anyone can say that with a straight face. The misinformation for profit strategies employed by big tobacco, oil, military, pharma etc. have proven extraordinarily effective, time and time again. The timescales are nothing to do with "what I want" and everything to do with the fate of people's lives. From losing relatives to cancer and COPD caused by smoking, to the extreme and rapid and irreversible loss of species, this idea that we can trust in invisible forces to save us from demonic ultra-wealthy cunts with no conscience whatsoever is baldly stupid, to the point of criminality. That said - censorship from platform owners *is* abusively used to skew political discussions, and indeed I'd agree "trust cannot be given to"a few lone entities." But the record shows quite clearly that the marketplace of ideas, as such exists, is corrupt, perverted, poisoned, bought, sold and not fit for purpose.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  How can you say that with regards to tobacco? It's all but illegal, completely banned in most public places, you can basically only use it in your home or outdoors alone. "Not on the timescale you want" is the salient point.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    But timescales actually matter. Without any expectation of a specific time scale, you can claim that anything is actually working perfectly and just hasn’t worked yet.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    If the system actually worked tobacco would actually be banned and not almost. Despite being only able to smoke outdoors I still see many young people in Spain taking up the habit.
    - version_five 5y ago
      What if people don't share your priorities and would rather smoke despite the health consequences. Where does this line of thinking end? Why should someone else get to tell us how to prioritize pleasurable activities vs health and longevity. The argument about misleading advertising I understand, and if you'd said "advertising portraying smoking as safe would actually be banned" then I think there's a clearer argument (despite my being uncomfortable with the idea of "misinformation" being targeted, we have lots of reasonable precedents for statement you can make about products you sell). But legislating what people's health priorities should be is authoritarian and not a power government should ever have.
    - goatlover 5y ago
      Why should tobacco be banned? That's just another war on drugs that didn't work for alcohol or pot, and isn't working for the current illicit drugs. People should be allowed to smoke what they want, as long as it isn't a health issue for others. If young people in Spain want to smoke outside or in their homes, so what?
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        Nobody starts smoking because they like it. They get roped into it by others. Pretty much everyone I know regrets they ever started. That's the difference. Many other drugs are actually nice to use. I don't want to ban it for those old people that have smoked all their lives. But that young people still take it up is worrying.

mandmandam 5y ago

>The marketplace of ideas works. It may not work in the timescale you want I'm astounded anyone can say that with a straight face. The misinformation for profit strategies employed by big tobacco, oil, military, pharma etc. have proven extraordinarily effective, time and time again. The timescales are nothing to do with "what I want" and everything to do with the fate of people's lives. From losing relatives to cancer and COPD caused by smoking, to the extreme and rapid and irreversible loss of species, this idea that we can trust in invisible forces to save us from demonic ultra-wealthy cunts with no conscience whatsoever is baldly stupid, to the point of criminality. That said - censorship from platform owners *is* abusively used to skew political discussions, and indeed I'd agree "trust cannot be given to"a few lone entities." But the record shows quite clearly that the marketplace of ideas, as such exists, is corrupt, perverted, poisoned, bought, sold and not fit for purpose.

throwawayboise 5y ago
How can you say that with regards to tobacco? It's all but illegal, completely banned in most public places, you can basically only use it in your home or outdoors alone. "Not on the timescale you want" is the salient point.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tshaddox 5y ago
  But timescales actually matter. Without any expectation of a specific time scale, you can claim that anything is actually working perfectly and just hasn’t worked yet.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  If the system actually worked tobacco would actually be banned and not almost. Despite being only able to smoke outdoors I still see many young people in Spain taking up the habit.
  - version_five 5y ago
    What if people don't share your priorities and would rather smoke despite the health consequences. Where does this line of thinking end? Why should someone else get to tell us how to prioritize pleasurable activities vs health and longevity. The argument about misleading advertising I understand, and if you'd said "advertising portraying smoking as safe would actually be banned" then I think there's a clearer argument (despite my being uncomfortable with the idea of "misinformation" being targeted, we have lots of reasonable precedents for statement you can make about products you sell). But legislating what people's health priorities should be is authoritarian and not a power government should ever have.
  - goatlover 5y ago
    Why should tobacco be banned? That's just another war on drugs that didn't work for alcohol or pot, and isn't working for the current illicit drugs. People should be allowed to smoke what they want, as long as it isn't a health issue for others. If young people in Spain want to smoke outside or in their homes, so what?
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Nobody starts smoking because they like it. They get roped into it by others. Pretty much everyone I know regrets they ever started. That's the difference. Many other drugs are actually nice to use. I don't want to ban it for those old people that have smoked all their lives. But that young people still take it up is worrying.