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> Turns out AT&T operate on a whitelist system [1] ( What ? ) with a list [2] of phones. Sort of surprised but also not so surprised coming from an US Mobile Ca

by blfr 5y ago

> Turns out AT&T operate on a whitelist system [1] ( What ? ) with a list [2] of phones. Sort of surprised but also not so surprised coming from an US Mobile Carrier. Pretty sure all carriers in Poland operate on a white list of phones. https://wificalling-volte.pl/ https://wificalling-volte.pl/

tpmx 5y ago
Having a white list of devices is pretty unusual in Europe, afaik.
- distances 5y ago
  Can confirm, I've worked with mobile phone related stuff for about 15 years and never before this article have I heard of a whitelist. My first reaction is that the concept sounds ridiculous, you're supposed to be able to put a SIM card to any device you find and just use it.
  - blfr 5y ago
    That's exactly how it works, just without VoLTE and VoWiFi.
  - g_p 5y ago
    The US (not sure about Canadian) mobile market is completely different to the European one. It's almost alien in comparison - the carrier tries to control absolutely everything, and generally sees the handset as an extension of their network to the extent they want to "type approve" every firmware release on every handset that is "allowed" onto their network. Apple appeared to become the exception due to having such an "in-demand" handset (going exclusive with AT&T initially might have helped them negotiate better terms with other carriers to get the iPhone to their networks) - mobile operators can't modify the iOS firmware at all. On any other phone, expect branding, pre-installed bloatware apps, modified startup and shutdown screens, modified top-bar to show "5G" on presence of a 4G network, and 6+ month delays to security updates while they get the above modifications made to the firmware before they approve it. Arguably part of the "control" mindset comes from CDMA networks, where you couldn't "pop the SIM" and change network - you had to get the ESN whitelisted on the network, and that gave the carrier a lot of control over your ability to switch phone, or whether you could buy it from anywhere except themselves. I guess GSM carriers admired this level of customer-capture, and wanted to replicate it. It sounds like "GSM" carriers are going to have to move fully towards whitelisting to preserve voice calling service when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks. Inbound roaming of foreign users will be interesting in the next few years - without any CSFB voice support, they will likely not be able to serve most incoming roamers (who don't have network-to-network arrangement for VoLTE roaming), and that might cause a loss of roaming revenues once travel levels return towards more of a normal.
    - tpmx 5y ago
      > when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks Why? Isn't that stuff they run in software (on network hardware) and could emulate forever for a low cost? (Or at least for another decade until very, very few people would care.)
      - g_p 5y ago
        Not really - many are still running it on legacy appliances like they have done for years. There's also a lot of implications of moving CSFB type functions into the IT environment due to completely different security assumptions in both worlds. That's not to say you can't do it, but the circuit switched networks are very often actual literal networks of legacy hardware that operators want to get rid of and take out of service. The cost of keeping legacy systems going is also raised due to skills shortages and limited expertise. Another reason operators will try to get rid of it if possible.
    - madars 5y ago
      > On any other phone, expect branding, pre-installed bloatware apps, modified startup and shutdown screens, modified top-bar to show "5G" on presence of a 4G network, and 6+ month delays to security updates while they get the above modifications made to the firmware before they approve it. Have never seen anything like that on Pixel / Nexus phones bought from Play Store and not tied to a particular network. Is this an issue specific to carrier-bought phones or are all Pixels exempt?
      - lostcolony 5y ago
        Carrier bought phones except iphones. I think that was the point the OP was making; you can walk into a carrier store and buy an iphone from them, and it's the same phone you'd get from Apple, just with the carrier sim already included. But any Android phone you buy from the carrier is going to come with a whole lotta cruft. None of that applies if you buy a phone separately from the carrier (so Google phones, or OnePlus, or similar), but most of those also make arrangements with the carriers, I think, to recognize the phone before sale (at least, my carrier recognized both my Pixel and OnePlus devices at the times I had them).
- anticensor 5y ago
  In Turkey, device whitelisting is required by law, but it is done by the government itself, not by the carrier operator.
  - ksec 5y ago
    Interesting. What is the rational of that? So I cant bring in a obscure phone that no one have heard of before into Turkey and expect it to work on any mobile network? This is hardly "Mobile" at all.
    - anticensor 5y ago
      Not like that. It is done by IMEI-IMSI-personal ID number matching, not by device types. If any one component of that triplet changes, you have a month to register it to yourself again. Otherwise, no service to you anymore. And yes, they will probably refuse to register an IMEI for a device that is not previously certified to operate in Turkey.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  Orange (.fr) has a whitelist of devices even for data LTE.

by blfr 5y ago

tpmx 5y ago

Having a white list of devices is pretty unusual in Europe, afaik.

distances 5y ago
Can confirm, I've worked with mobile phone related stuff for about 15 years and never before this article have I heard of a whitelist. My first reaction is that the concept sounds ridiculous, you're supposed to be able to put a SIM card to any device you find and just use it.
- blfr 5y ago
  That's exactly how it works, just without VoLTE and VoWiFi.
- g_p 5y ago
  The US (not sure about Canadian) mobile market is completely different to the European one. It's almost alien in comparison - the carrier tries to control absolutely everything, and generally sees the handset as an extension of their network to the extent they want to "type approve" every firmware release on every handset that is "allowed" onto their network. Apple appeared to become the exception due to having such an "in-demand" handset (going exclusive with AT&T initially might have helped them negotiate better terms with other carriers to get the iPhone to their networks) - mobile operators can't modify the iOS firmware at all. On any other phone, expect branding, pre-installed bloatware apps, modified startup and shutdown screens, modified top-bar to show "5G" on presence of a 4G network, and 6+ month delays to security updates while they get the above modifications made to the firmware before they approve it. Arguably part of the "control" mindset comes from CDMA networks, where you couldn't "pop the SIM" and change network - you had to get the ESN whitelisted on the network, and that gave the carrier a lot of control over your ability to switch phone, or whether you could buy it from anywhere except themselves. I guess GSM carriers admired this level of customer-capture, and wanted to replicate it. It sounds like "GSM" carriers are going to have to move fully towards whitelisting to preserve voice calling service when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks. Inbound roaming of foreign users will be interesting in the next few years - without any CSFB voice support, they will likely not be able to serve most incoming roamers (who don't have network-to-network arrangement for VoLTE roaming), and that might cause a loss of roaming revenues once travel levels return towards more of a normal.
  - tpmx 5y ago
    > when they get rid of their circuit switched fallback networks Why? Isn't that stuff they run in software (on network hardware) and could emulate forever for a low cost? (Or at least for another decade until very, very few people would care.)
    - g_p 5y ago
      Not really - many are still running it on legacy appliances like they have done for years. There's also a lot of implications of moving CSFB type functions into the IT environment due to completely different security assumptions in both worlds. That's not to say you can't do it, but the circuit switched networks are very often actual literal networks of legacy hardware that operators want to get rid of and take out of service. The cost of keeping legacy systems going is also raised due to skills shortages and limited expertise. Another reason operators will try to get rid of it if possible.
  - madars 5y ago
    > On any other phone, expect branding, pre-installed bloatware apps, modified startup and shutdown screens, modified top-bar to show "5G" on presence of a 4G network, and 6+ month delays to security updates while they get the above modifications made to the firmware before they approve it. Have never seen anything like that on Pixel / Nexus phones bought from Play Store and not tied to a particular network. Is this an issue specific to carrier-bought phones or are all Pixels exempt?
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      Carrier bought phones except iphones. I think that was the point the OP was making; you can walk into a carrier store and buy an iphone from them, and it's the same phone you'd get from Apple, just with the carrier sim already included. But any Android phone you buy from the carrier is going to come with a whole lotta cruft. None of that applies if you buy a phone separately from the carrier (so Google phones, or OnePlus, or similar), but most of those also make arrangements with the carriers, I think, to recognize the phone before sale (at least, my carrier recognized both my Pixel and OnePlus devices at the times I had them).
anticensor 5y ago
In Turkey, device whitelisting is required by law, but it is done by the government itself, not by the carrier operator.
- ksec 5y ago
  Interesting. What is the rational of that? So I cant bring in a obscure phone that no one have heard of before into Turkey and expect it to work on any mobile network? This is hardly "Mobile" at all.
  - anticensor 5y ago
    Not like that. It is done by IMEI-IMSI-personal ID number matching, not by device types. If any one component of that triplet changes, you have a month to register it to yourself again. Otherwise, no service to you anymore. And yes, they will probably refuse to register an IMEI for a device that is not previously certified to operate in Turkey.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
Orange (.fr) has a whitelist of devices even for data LTE.