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The goal is to decarbonize our economy. We need to convert pretty much everything that uses fossil fuels in house to use electricity. At the same time we are re

The goal is to decarbonize our economy. We need to convert pretty much everything that uses fossil fuels in house to use electricity. At the same time we are replacing in house fossil fuel usage (gas stoves, gas water heaters, etc) we also need to be increasing the energy share of renewables on the grid. Its not an "either/or" its a "both/and" situation. Decarbonizing the household can and should be done in tandem with decarbonizing the grid. Induction stoves, which are the modern alternative to gas, are much more efficient, get to temperature instantly, and are generally considered a very high quality.

jazzyjackson 5y ago
They are also more fragile and have a high cost of repairs, and aren’t we running out of copper?
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  1) "fragility and cost of repairs" are not an inherent quality of a manufactured product. When gas appliances were new, they were also fragile and expensive to repair. The process by which they became sturdy and cheap to repair was that they became widely used, which lead to an incentive structure where the companies that manufacture them were rewarded for making them sturdier and easier to repair. If we can make induction stoves a widely used appliance, their fragility and cost of repairs will improve due to the natural improvements during a products lifecycle. 2) No, we are not running out of copper.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    I can have a guy at my house same-day to fix a gas oven, or maybe just grease the valve myself. A computer-controlled induction coil will never be so simple to fix, in some cases it's probably cheaper to junk the broken one and replace the whole thing. And I was obviously being a little facetious, but copper is becoming more expensive and mines are having to expand to meet demand.
- jhoechtl 5y ago
  My moms gas oven is 50 years old. It did't fail a single time. Doesn't have electric ignition though. Still running on the fist set of flame outlets. It will probably outlive her. My understanding of how they work is that they are dam simple and reliable.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    Can't get much simpler than a valve. Meanwhile I think my induction hotplate probably has a floating point co-processor and 4-layer PCB.
deleted 5y ago
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cartoonworld 5y ago
Point taken wrt greenhouse, but I don't think we're gonna be that desperate even considering how bad the situation already is, and is likely to get. Gas cooking is a really tiny fraction of residential greenhouse emissions. Natural gas accounts for most of of the greenhouse emissions from commercial and residential[0] sources, but commercial & residential represent less than 15% of the total domestic US contribution. If you consider how often somebody is using the gas range vs their water heater or household heating, this is a really really small number. Globally, the numbers look similar[1]. I'm not sure about how much gas is leaking from the grid, or what the cost of the hazards associated with the gas supply is, however the second source cites fugitive emissions as %3.9 and pipeline transport as %0.3. Its a little unclear to me exactly what the proportion of cooking is, but it is undoubtedly very small. Greenhouse minimalist is certainly a valid position to stake out, but personally I see the buy in easier to achieve in the other, larger, more centralized sources. There is also the possibility of delivering non-fossil fuel gas, while a bit jokey, there are diverse sources and the technology is mature[2] However you or I feel about energy diversity should probably be disregarded currently as its not an issue at this time, but I feel confident that we likely can keep cooking with gas if we handle the other stuff and even if we don't. Also, consider the unneeded political difficulty introduced while garnering consumer action instead of tackling the largest and most easily managed contributors. [0] - https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#commercial-and-residential https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... [1] - https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas
tastyfreeze 5y ago
Why not produce zero carbon natural gas at the sewage plant and municipal dump instead of banning the best method of cooking? Seems like the easy route of passing restrictive laws instead of a real solution.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

They are also more fragile and have a high cost of repairs, and aren’t we running out of copper?

0xB31B1B 5y ago
1) "fragility and cost of repairs" are not an inherent quality of a manufactured product. When gas appliances were new, they were also fragile and expensive to repair. The process by which they became sturdy and cheap to repair was that they became widely used, which lead to an incentive structure where the companies that manufacture them were rewarded for making them sturdier and easier to repair. If we can make induction stoves a widely used appliance, their fragility and cost of repairs will improve due to the natural improvements during a products lifecycle. 2) No, we are not running out of copper.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I can have a guy at my house same-day to fix a gas oven, or maybe just grease the valve myself. A computer-controlled induction coil will never be so simple to fix, in some cases it's probably cheaper to junk the broken one and replace the whole thing. And I was obviously being a little facetious, but copper is becoming more expensive and mines are having to expand to meet demand.
jhoechtl 5y ago
My moms gas oven is 50 years old. It did't fail a single time. Doesn't have electric ignition though. Still running on the fist set of flame outlets. It will probably outlive her. My understanding of how they work is that they are dam simple and reliable.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Can't get much simpler than a valve. Meanwhile I think my induction hotplate probably has a floating point co-processor and 4-layer PCB.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cartoonworld 5y ago

Point taken wrt greenhouse, but I don't think we're gonna be that desperate even considering how bad the situation already is, and is likely to get. Gas cooking is a really tiny fraction of residential greenhouse emissions. Natural gas accounts for most of of the greenhouse emissions from commercial and residential[0] sources, but commercial & residential represent less than 15% of the total domestic US contribution. If you consider how often somebody is using the gas range vs their water heater or household heating, this is a really really small number. Globally, the numbers look similar[1]. I'm not sure about how much gas is leaking from the grid, or what the cost of the hazards associated with the gas supply is, however the second source cites fugitive emissions as %3.9 and pipeline transport as %0.3. Its a little unclear to me exactly what the proportion of cooking is, but it is undoubtedly very small. Greenhouse minimalist is certainly a valid position to stake out, but personally I see the buy in easier to achieve in the other, larger, more centralized sources. There is also the possibility of delivering non-fossil fuel gas, while a bit jokey, there are diverse sources and the technology is mature[2] However you or I feel about energy diversity should probably be disregarded currently as its not an issue at this time, but I feel confident that we likely can keep cooking with gas if we handle the other stuff and even if we don't. Also, consider the unneeded political difficulty introduced while garnering consumer action instead of tackling the largest and most easily managed contributors. [0] - https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#commercial-and-residential https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... [1] - https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas

tastyfreeze 5y ago

Why not produce zero carbon natural gas at the sewage plant and municipal dump instead of banning the best method of cooking? Seems like the easy route of passing restrictive laws instead of a real solution.