4 ms·

Nope. Have been a developer for windows applications for 20 and some years. Software I build back then still runs fine. Have been a developer for macOS since

by wila 5y ago

Nope. Have been a developer for windows applications for 20 and some years. Software I build back then still runs fine. Have been a developer for macOS since 2013, since around 2019 I need to bring out patches for changes in the core OS multiple times per year. macOS is not a pleasant OS for a developer. Documentation is pretty shitty and the rugs that get pulled from under you all the time are frustrating.

xrd 5y ago
Glad to know it isn't just me. Same general developer history, same experience. Windows has its quirks and bad decisions they made over the years but the developer experience is consistent, even when bad. Apple's experience is like being in an Arabian desert: sometimes you see a mysterious oasis that wasn't there before, but mostly it is shifting dunes that cost days or months.
- mst 5y ago
  There was an article talking about how we train ourselves to our tools to not do the things that cause problems. This works a lot better when the set of "things that cause problems" stays relatively constant.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I think this is one of the reason Microsoft leadership was historically so rabid about reminding their employees that developer experience was core (because it's the indirect upstream of user experience). Third party developers are an example of "out of sight, out of mind." It's easy to forget how a feature impacts them. And it's easy to say "We still have apps coming into the platform." But what you don't see is the frustration, resentment, or apps that were never written because developers found something better to do with their time. Mac and iOS development isn't there yet, but it sure feels like they aren't trying very hard to steer the ship in any other direction.
rapind 5y ago
At least you aren’t paying for this sub par environment… oh wait.
- wila 5y ago
  Actually, I'm fine with that part :) For Windows you nowadays need EV code sign certificates in order to be able to distribute without any troubles and -while you don't pay that directly to Microsoft- these certs are significantly more expensive than the "macOS developer tax". Yes, you can also distribute to the Windows App store, which is cheaper (a one time tax). But I'm not really a fan of "App Store's" be it from Apple/Google or Microsoft.
zh3 5y ago
Oh and if you have an older Mac Mini, you need to upgrade the OS to run a newer Safari? (that's the first platform I've ever seen that needed an OS update to install the OS's own browser). So the kids are now using Brave.
- djxfade 5y ago
  > that's the first platform I've ever seen that needed an OS update to install the OS's own browser Used to be the case for Windows as well with Internet Explorer.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    And Microsoft Edge right after that for a few years.
    - wila 5y ago
      You can install Microsoft Edge right now still on Windows 2008 R2 as well as on Windows 7. [1] They even support this for WebView2, the embedded version of MS Edge that you can use in your applications. [2] Both of those operating systems have been retired for a while. Microsoft has its flaws as well, but at least in this part they are doing quite well. I just happen to be working on a WebView2 ActiveX control and this is one of those areas that really did surprise me. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-supported-operating-systems https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-s... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/webview2/#supported-platforms https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/webview2/#su...
  - zh3 5y ago
    My mistake then, I guess I never hit that despite using Windows way more than IOS (Windows has a lot better at backward compatibility, at least in my experience). Personal experience with trying to switch to Mac has been...well, both expensive and unpleasant. Single data point, but new hardware that fails every 4 minutes after power on and the fix being an upsell has really put me off.

by wila 5y ago

xrd 5y ago

Glad to know it isn't just me. Same general developer history, same experience. Windows has its quirks and bad decisions they made over the years but the developer experience is consistent, even when bad. Apple's experience is like being in an Arabian desert: sometimes you see a mysterious oasis that wasn't there before, but mostly it is shifting dunes that cost days or months.

mst 5y ago
There was an article talking about how we train ourselves to our tools to not do the things that cause problems. This works a lot better when the set of "things that cause problems" stays relatively constant.
ethbr0 5y ago
I think this is one of the reason Microsoft leadership was historically so rabid about reminding their employees that developer experience was core (because it's the indirect upstream of user experience). Third party developers are an example of "out of sight, out of mind." It's easy to forget how a feature impacts them. And it's easy to say "We still have apps coming into the platform." But what you don't see is the frustration, resentment, or apps that were never written because developers found something better to do with their time. Mac and iOS development isn't there yet, but it sure feels like they aren't trying very hard to steer the ship in any other direction.

rapind 5y ago

At least you aren’t paying for this sub par environment… oh wait.

wila 5y ago
Actually, I'm fine with that part :) For Windows you nowadays need EV code sign certificates in order to be able to distribute without any troubles and -while you don't pay that directly to Microsoft- these certs are significantly more expensive than the "macOS developer tax". Yes, you can also distribute to the Windows App store, which is cheaper (a one time tax). But I'm not really a fan of "App Store's" be it from Apple/Google or Microsoft.

zh3 5y ago

Oh and if you have an older Mac Mini, you need to upgrade the OS to run a newer Safari? (that's the first platform I've ever seen that needed an OS update to install the OS's own browser). So the kids are now using Brave.

djxfade 5y ago
> that's the first platform I've ever seen that needed an OS update to install the OS's own browser Used to be the case for Windows as well with Internet Explorer.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  And Microsoft Edge right after that for a few years.
  - wila 5y ago
    You can install Microsoft Edge right now still on Windows 2008 R2 as well as on Windows 7. [1] They even support this for WebView2, the embedded version of MS Edge that you can use in your applications. [2] Both of those operating systems have been retired for a while. Microsoft has its flaws as well, but at least in this part they are doing quite well. I just happen to be working on a WebView2 ActiveX control and this is one of those areas that really did surprise me. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-supported-operating-systems https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-s... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/webview2/#supported-platforms https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/webview2/#su...
- zh3 5y ago
  My mistake then, I guess I never hit that despite using Windows way more than IOS (Windows has a lot better at backward compatibility, at least in my experience). Personal experience with trying to switch to Mac has been...well, both expensive and unpleasant. Single data point, but new hardware that fails every 4 minutes after power on and the fix being an upsell has really put me off.