5 ms·

Canadians love flattering comparisons to the US. As a Canadian, however, this pandemic mostly revealed how dangerously incompetent most levels of government are

by cal5k 5y ago

Canadians love flattering comparisons to the US. As a Canadian, however, this pandemic mostly revealed how dangerously incompetent most levels of government are in this country. Canada has had some of the longest, most evidence-free lockdowns of any Western country. Our vaccine acquisition strategy was a disaster, saved only by the near miraculous ramp-up in manufacturing capacity by two American pharmaceutical companies: Moderna and Pfizer. None of those vaccines were manufactured in Canada. The federal government effectively doubled the national debt in about a year, firehosing money to any and all causes indiscriminately. Small businesses like restaurants and gyms remained closed or severely restricted in much of the country for well over a year, while large foreign businesses like Costco and Amazon thrived. Only in the last month have things started to open up again. Provinces instituted draconian restrictions, up to an including a months-long 8PM curfew in the province of Quebec. Movement between provinces, a constitutionally-guaranteed freedom, was severely curtailed - roadblocks with police presence were often set up to prevent "non-essential" travel within the country. All manner of restrictions on fundamental freedoms were reaffirmed by the courts, relying heavily one Section 1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as its escape clause: "Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." Translation: fundamental rights can be abrogated by government whenever it's convenient to do so. The minority federal government used the pandemic opportunistically, shutting down legitimate investigations into misuse of government funds and ramming through legislation that was unrelated to the pandemic - draconian gun control legislation, massive increases in carbon taxes, regulation of social media, "hate speech" laws that aim to severely curtail freedom of expression, the list goes on. Any criticism of these bills was met with cries of "Now is not the time for criticism, this is a pandemic!". With a useless senate, captive courts, and weak opposition parties, our government has shown itself to be a rather authoritarian one. And with no term limits, it's quite possible we could be under the thumb of incompetent authoritarianism-lite for the next decade. The worst part is that few Canadians seem to be bothered by this.

jsbdk 5y ago
Practically all of this happened in Spain. Recently one of the higher courts ruled our first lockdown, which was absolute, as unconstitutional. Over a year later! They will return all the money they stole from us in fines. But what about the time, and our rights? If I had known this I would've gone out... And they have the media in their pockets so no one will complain. Until recently we were forced to wear a mask always, even if we were completely alone in the middle of the street. The police kicked doors down if they suspected there was a reunion going on in your private property. It was a nightmare. If you are American, cherish your freedom! You don't know how valuable it is.
- neither_color 5y ago
  What’s funny is I’d have to go to random streamer accounts to find any evidence at all of anti-lockdown protests happening all over Europe at different times. I’ve seen people in France, Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, etc getting beat and firehosed… without a peep from the media here. They sure are selective about which causes are righteous. Covid completely broke my innocence regarding “trusted news sources”
  - refurb 5y ago
    Yeah, for me the US and Canadian media completely ignoring or dismissing anti-lockdown protests in Europe were pretty clear evidence of bias. If the event got any coverage at all they were dismissed as far-right (read: Neo-Nazis) and nothing even worth discussing.
  - detaro 5y ago
    I'm German (i.e. not primarily looking at US media) and have seen US media reports about the protests here online. from a quick google for just the pairing CNN/Germany there's at least a dozen articles?
  - atatatat 5y ago
    They're always the causes that increase profits for their stakeholders.
mcrae 5y ago
> Our vaccine acquisition strategy was a disaster Not sure if the facts agree with you here. Canada had, at one point, the largest number of vaccines on order per capita from a number of different companies. [0] You seem to dismiss this news which contradicts your point - that Canada has better vaccination outcomes than those countries who DO produce vaccines, like the US and the UK, to say nothing of peer countries like Australia. [1] Certainly many aspects of the pandemic response could have been massively improved on — but I’m not sure if there’s any citizen of any country that doesn’t feel that way today. My suggestion: open your eyes a bit and take a moment to be thankful for the relatively good outcomes we’ve enjoyed vs the rest of the world. We’re not under anyone’s thumb yet. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/us/coronavirus-vaccine-doses-reserved.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/us/coronavirus-vaccine-do... [1] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
- cal5k 5y ago
  Better outcomes as measured how? I received both vaccine doses while visiting Texas, months before my friends in Canada. I was also going mask-free in Texas over 3 months before I was able to do so in Alberta. When I returned to Canada, I risked huge fines by refusing to stay in a government-mandated quarantine hotel (despite the fact that I was already fully vaccinated), and still had to quarantine at home for 2 weeks. Again, despite the fact that I was fully vaccinated. No quarantine at all was required when I landed in Texas 6 weeks prior to that. A lot of Canadians blindly point to mortality statistics without a) correcting for differences that predate covid, and b) consideration of fundamental freedoms. This is apparently a minority view in Canada, but I (and many others) value preservation of natural rights over safetyism.
  - lolwut12345 5y ago
    Sounds like you are kind of playing fast and loose with the word “evidence”. You understand Texas is literally the land of “hey, you need to winterize your infrastructure or people will die”, twice over, less than a decade apart? It’s almost like they start with what they think should happen and find “facts” to match their ideals, not reality. But sure, let’s say that our moron friends to the north in Alberta were a well run, functional democratic crew, and not a 30 year reign of clueless cronies, that still doesn’t say much about Canada as a whole, which mostly did better than Alberta. Noting that Alberta as a whole is as large as one of the suburbs shit out of a real city in the rest of Canada. I can say that, as an Albertan living in the southern states. But sure, we should all pay more attention to what you think should happen, smart guy.
PoignardAzur 5y ago
> The federal government effectively doubled the national debt in about a year, firehosing money to any and all causes indiscriminately. There's a lot I disagree with in how you're framing your post, but I'll only address this: What you describe is a good thing. Borrowing lots of money during a crisis to avoid long-term damage is the best possible use of national debt (whereas compensating for a budget in deficit, the usual offender, is the worst). We often forget that money is a virtual thing. It's a signal of where value should be distributed. During a crisis, firehosing money towards closed-down businesses is saying "this crisis is only temporary, these businesses should still be able to operate when the economy opens up again".
- peytn 5y ago
  I think a much deeper analysis would be necessary to say whether this “is a good thing.”
  - nameisname 5y ago
    Agreed. I want to see where this money went.
- refurb 5y ago
  The deficit went from ~10% ($30B) in 2019 to 100% ($300B) in 2020 (estimate as not formal budget proposed).
- cal5k 5y ago
  That's absurd. Money is not virtual to me, it directly translates to goods and services I can purchase to improve my life. Doubling the national debt in a year will lead to either a) inflation, b) higher taxes, or c) both, all of which are extremely undesirable given that Canada already has a high cost of living and a top marginal income tax rate > 50%. Politicians spent irresponsibly in 2020 and continue to do so now. A cursory examination of even recent history (see: the 90s) is enough to show that we are in for a world of financial hurt within the next decade as interest rates rise to combat inflation.
refurb 5y ago
Canada got lucky. A bad bet on a Chinese partnership delayed things. The govt was late to the game in terms of securing doses - insiders even admit this. They then rushed to order as much as possible in the Spring. Deliveries were ahead of schedule luckily.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Wasn't Canada the fourth country to sigba contract with Pfizer? I think other contracts were signed similarly early on, ahead of all but a few other countries.
salamandersauce 5y ago
What would have been a better vaccine acquisition strategy? Do you honestly think we could have built a brand new facility to manufacture something like mRNA vaccines, gotten licensing to do so, etc. in time? Because to me it looks like we did a considerably better job than Australia, a better job than New Zealand, France, Japan, etc. We placed bets on multiple vaccines, not just Moderna and Pfizer. We bought doses of the J&J, Astra Zeneca, Novavax, Medicago, GlaxoKlineSmith too. And Section 6 of the charter says: "Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province." Even at the most locked down you could still move to one of the Atlantic provinces if you were taking up residence/starting a job there. The limitations were IMO reasonable and a big part of the reason the Atlantic provinces did so much better at controlling spread was because they limited travelers.
atatatat 5y ago
The large scale problems are someone else's problems — the Hot Pockets are still hot, and the TV is still on.
- cal5k 5y ago
  This is the problem, isn't it - until Canadians feel the pain acutely, they will accept absolute appalling mediocrity without so much as a peep of complaint.

by cal5k 5y ago

jsbdk 5y ago

Practically all of this happened in Spain. Recently one of the higher courts ruled our first lockdown, which was absolute, as unconstitutional. Over a year later! They will return all the money they stole from us in fines. But what about the time, and our rights? If I had known this I would've gone out... And they have the media in their pockets so no one will complain. Until recently we were forced to wear a mask always, even if we were completely alone in the middle of the street. The police kicked doors down if they suspected there was a reunion going on in your private property. It was a nightmare. If you are American, cherish your freedom! You don't know how valuable it is.

neither_color 5y ago
What’s funny is I’d have to go to random streamer accounts to find any evidence at all of anti-lockdown protests happening all over Europe at different times. I’ve seen people in France, Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, etc getting beat and firehosed… without a peep from the media here. They sure are selective about which causes are righteous. Covid completely broke my innocence regarding “trusted news sources”
- refurb 5y ago
  Yeah, for me the US and Canadian media completely ignoring or dismissing anti-lockdown protests in Europe were pretty clear evidence of bias. If the event got any coverage at all they were dismissed as far-right (read: Neo-Nazis) and nothing even worth discussing.
- detaro 5y ago
  I'm German (i.e. not primarily looking at US media) and have seen US media reports about the protests here online. from a quick google for just the pairing CNN/Germany there's at least a dozen articles?
- atatatat 5y ago
  They're always the causes that increase profits for their stakeholders.

mcrae 5y ago

> Our vaccine acquisition strategy was a disaster Not sure if the facts agree with you here. Canada had, at one point, the largest number of vaccines on order per capita from a number of different companies. [0] You seem to dismiss this news which contradicts your point - that Canada has better vaccination outcomes than those countries who DO produce vaccines, like the US and the UK, to say nothing of peer countries like Australia. [1] Certainly many aspects of the pandemic response could have been massively improved on — but I’m not sure if there’s any citizen of any country that doesn’t feel that way today. My suggestion: open your eyes a bit and take a moment to be thankful for the relatively good outcomes we’ve enjoyed vs the rest of the world. We’re not under anyone’s thumb yet. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/us/coronavirus-vaccine-doses-reserved.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/15/us/coronavirus-vaccine-do... [1] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

cal5k 5y ago
Better outcomes as measured how? I received both vaccine doses while visiting Texas, months before my friends in Canada. I was also going mask-free in Texas over 3 months before I was able to do so in Alberta. When I returned to Canada, I risked huge fines by refusing to stay in a government-mandated quarantine hotel (despite the fact that I was already fully vaccinated), and still had to quarantine at home for 2 weeks. Again, despite the fact that I was fully vaccinated. No quarantine at all was required when I landed in Texas 6 weeks prior to that. A lot of Canadians blindly point to mortality statistics without a) correcting for differences that predate covid, and b) consideration of fundamental freedoms. This is apparently a minority view in Canada, but I (and many others) value preservation of natural rights over safetyism.
- lolwut12345 5y ago
  Sounds like you are kind of playing fast and loose with the word “evidence”. You understand Texas is literally the land of “hey, you need to winterize your infrastructure or people will die”, twice over, less than a decade apart? It’s almost like they start with what they think should happen and find “facts” to match their ideals, not reality. But sure, let’s say that our moron friends to the north in Alberta were a well run, functional democratic crew, and not a 30 year reign of clueless cronies, that still doesn’t say much about Canada as a whole, which mostly did better than Alberta. Noting that Alberta as a whole is as large as one of the suburbs shit out of a real city in the rest of Canada. I can say that, as an Albertan living in the southern states. But sure, we should all pay more attention to what you think should happen, smart guy.

PoignardAzur 5y ago

> The federal government effectively doubled the national debt in about a year, firehosing money to any and all causes indiscriminately. There's a lot I disagree with in how you're framing your post, but I'll only address this: What you describe is a good thing. Borrowing lots of money during a crisis to avoid long-term damage is the best possible use of national debt (whereas compensating for a budget in deficit, the usual offender, is the worst). We often forget that money is a virtual thing. It's a signal of where value should be distributed. During a crisis, firehosing money towards closed-down businesses is saying "this crisis is only temporary, these businesses should still be able to operate when the economy opens up again".

peytn 5y ago
I think a much deeper analysis would be necessary to say whether this “is a good thing.”
- nameisname 5y ago
  Agreed. I want to see where this money went.
refurb 5y ago
The deficit went from ~10% ($30B) in 2019 to 100% ($300B) in 2020 (estimate as not formal budget proposed).
cal5k 5y ago
That's absurd. Money is not virtual to me, it directly translates to goods and services I can purchase to improve my life. Doubling the national debt in a year will lead to either a) inflation, b) higher taxes, or c) both, all of which are extremely undesirable given that Canada already has a high cost of living and a top marginal income tax rate > 50%. Politicians spent irresponsibly in 2020 and continue to do so now. A cursory examination of even recent history (see: the 90s) is enough to show that we are in for a world of financial hurt within the next decade as interest rates rise to combat inflation.

refurb 5y ago

Canada got lucky. A bad bet on a Chinese partnership delayed things. The govt was late to the game in terms of securing doses - insiders even admit this. They then rushed to order as much as possible in the Spring. Deliveries were ahead of schedule luckily.

smnrchrds 5y ago
Wasn't Canada the fourth country to sigba contract with Pfizer? I think other contracts were signed similarly early on, ahead of all but a few other countries.

salamandersauce 5y ago

What would have been a better vaccine acquisition strategy? Do you honestly think we could have built a brand new facility to manufacture something like mRNA vaccines, gotten licensing to do so, etc. in time? Because to me it looks like we did a considerably better job than Australia, a better job than New Zealand, France, Japan, etc. We placed bets on multiple vaccines, not just Moderna and Pfizer. We bought doses of the J&J, Astra Zeneca, Novavax, Medicago, GlaxoKlineSmith too. And Section 6 of the charter says: "Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province." Even at the most locked down you could still move to one of the Atlantic provinces if you were taking up residence/starting a job there. The limitations were IMO reasonable and a big part of the reason the Atlantic provinces did so much better at controlling spread was because they limited travelers.

atatatat 5y ago

The large scale problems are someone else's problems — the Hot Pockets are still hot, and the TV is still on.

cal5k 5y ago
This is the problem, isn't it - until Canadians feel the pain acutely, they will accept absolute appalling mediocrity without so much as a peep of complaint.