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What does not make sense to me is that YouTube Premium does not let you opt out of any tracking. So Google asks that people pay $12 a month to not see ads, but

What does not make sense to me is that YouTube Premium does not let you opt out of any tracking. So Google asks that people pay $12 a month to not see ads, but still uses watching behavior to build a user profile to advertise to in all other mediums. Do I have this correct? How does google explain the value proposition? Is the real cost of YouTube (sans tracking) greater than $12 a month?

mgraczyk 5y ago
I think that's a fair point, and that's the primary reason I'm not a Premium customer. However, it's important to distinguish this completely reasonable point, that the product may be overpriced or provide less value than it should, vs an argument that Google is "unethical" for offering it.
mgraczyk 5y ago
Another explanation though, and this is from my inside view at other companies because I know nothing about Google's business model here. I would speculate that the average and 95th percentile customer experience with tracking is so astronomically better on average, across nearly all dimensions, that even after paying, fewer than 5% of users would prefer the no-tracking/personalization product experience. Personalized ads isn't just about getting you to click more. It's also about showing you fewer irrelevant ads. In fact on many sites that's way more important.
- commoner 5y ago
  96% of US users opted out of app tracking in iOS 14.5. iOS has a majority market share in the US, and over a quarter of the mobile OS market worldwide. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-out-of-app-tracking-in-ios-14-5-analytics-find/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-o... https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide Based on this data, it seems extremely unlikely that 95% of users would prefer the "customer experience with tracking" on YouTube or any other mainstream social media site.
  - mgraczyk 5y ago
    Yes it's an interesting counterpoint, but as a former Facebook employee I can say that those users will almost universally have a worse experience on the app, as measured by self-reported enjoyment. That is, if you run a randomized AB test where some users lose personalization, then ask everyone "are you enjoying Facebook", the responses are much better for the users who have personalization. Because the number 96 is large, it's not the case that some ads-averse subpopulation made an individually optimal choice. You either have to reject my empirical claim about surveys, or you have to agree that these users made a choice that is worse for them on timescales of 1-2 months. (There's room for an argument that they're worse off in the short term by opting out but everyone will be better off in the long term, but then we're no longer debating individual preferences)
    - tomjen3 5y ago
      >You either have to reject my empirical claim about surveys, Facebooks personalization seems to just send me to more and more content that makes me angry. Some people may find some pleasure in that, I suppose, but rejecting the temptation is not a suboptimal choice, like rejecting the 3rd beer is not a bad idea, even if you want it right now. And I don't think it is unrealistic that ~everybody is adverse to ads, but I think it is fairly likely that everybody who has seen apples privacy ads are going to think what Facebook and others do as creepy and opt out based on that. Finally I nearly always say no or give a low rating for those popups, because I find the popups annoying.
    - Larrikin 5y ago
      This comment assumes that Facebook is actually an enjoyable product as opposed to something that has morphed into a platform for engagement at all cost. The people who are being presented with rage inducing topics that they feel their circle of friends are fighting agaisnt from personalization of their feed from a mix of old and new content is likely to say they enjoy Facebook over the old feed where a friend of a friend from high school is posting baby pictures again and people are actually just living normal lives not being shaped by a desire for clout.
    - picardythird 5y ago
- picardythird 5y ago
  The problem with personalized ads is they give an unfair advantage to the seller. It’s like if you were to walk in to a car dealership and the dealer was given a 100 page file of information on you. Anyone with a basic understanding of human psychology will tell you that human beings are by and large irrational and should not be in the position of walking through a minefield of targeted psychological bait. It’s unethical.
svat 5y ago
With or without YouTube Premium you can opt out: if you go to https://adssettings.google.com/ https://adssettings.google.com/ (and signed in, as you would be if you're a YouTube Premium user) and click on "Advanced", there's a checkbox that says: > Also use your activity and information from Google services to personalise ads on websites and apps that partner with Google to show ads. This stores data from websites and apps that partner with Google in your Google Account. Unchecking this means (as I understand it) that, among other things, your YouTube watching behaviour will not be used for ad targeting on non-Google websites. (That's about non-Google websites, but as I type the above, I just realized that maybe by "all other mediums" you meant other Google sites, like Google Search etc. But those already covered under "Ad personalisation" (the main toggle at https://adssettings.google.com/ https://adssettings.google.com/) so I'm not quite sure the premise of the question is correct.)

mgraczyk 5y ago

I think that's a fair point, and that's the primary reason I'm not a Premium customer. However, it's important to distinguish this completely reasonable point, that the product may be overpriced or provide less value than it should, vs an argument that Google is "unethical" for offering it.

mgraczyk 5y ago

Another explanation though, and this is from my inside view at other companies because I know nothing about Google's business model here. I would speculate that the average and 95th percentile customer experience with tracking is so astronomically better on average, across nearly all dimensions, that even after paying, fewer than 5% of users would prefer the no-tracking/personalization product experience. Personalized ads isn't just about getting you to click more. It's also about showing you fewer irrelevant ads. In fact on many sites that's way more important.

commoner 5y ago
96% of US users opted out of app tracking in iOS 14.5. iOS has a majority market share in the US, and over a quarter of the mobile OS market worldwide. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-out-of-app-tracking-in-ios-14-5-analytics-find/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-o... https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide Based on this data, it seems extremely unlikely that 95% of users would prefer the "customer experience with tracking" on YouTube or any other mainstream social media site.
- mgraczyk 5y ago
  Yes it's an interesting counterpoint, but as a former Facebook employee I can say that those users will almost universally have a worse experience on the app, as measured by self-reported enjoyment. That is, if you run a randomized AB test where some users lose personalization, then ask everyone "are you enjoying Facebook", the responses are much better for the users who have personalization. Because the number 96 is large, it's not the case that some ads-averse subpopulation made an individually optimal choice. You either have to reject my empirical claim about surveys, or you have to agree that these users made a choice that is worse for them on timescales of 1-2 months. (There's room for an argument that they're worse off in the short term by opting out but everyone will be better off in the long term, but then we're no longer debating individual preferences)
  - tomjen3 5y ago
    >You either have to reject my empirical claim about surveys, Facebooks personalization seems to just send me to more and more content that makes me angry. Some people may find some pleasure in that, I suppose, but rejecting the temptation is not a suboptimal choice, like rejecting the 3rd beer is not a bad idea, even if you want it right now. And I don't think it is unrealistic that ~everybody is adverse to ads, but I think it is fairly likely that everybody who has seen apples privacy ads are going to think what Facebook and others do as creepy and opt out based on that. Finally I nearly always say no or give a low rating for those popups, because I find the popups annoying.
  - Larrikin 5y ago
    This comment assumes that Facebook is actually an enjoyable product as opposed to something that has morphed into a platform for engagement at all cost. The people who are being presented with rage inducing topics that they feel their circle of friends are fighting agaisnt from personalization of their feed from a mix of old and new content is likely to say they enjoy Facebook over the old feed where a friend of a friend from high school is posting baby pictures again and people are actually just living normal lives not being shaped by a desire for clout.
  - picardythird 5y ago
picardythird 5y ago
The problem with personalized ads is they give an unfair advantage to the seller. It’s like if you were to walk in to a car dealership and the dealer was given a 100 page file of information on you. Anyone with a basic understanding of human psychology will tell you that human beings are by and large irrational and should not be in the position of walking through a minefield of targeted psychological bait. It’s unethical.

svat 5y ago

With or without YouTube Premium you can opt out: if you go to https://adssettings.google.com/ https://adssettings.google.com/ (and signed in, as you would be if you're a YouTube Premium user) and click on "Advanced", there's a checkbox that says: > Also use your activity and information from Google services to personalise ads on websites and apps that partner with Google to show ads. This stores data from websites and apps that partner with Google in your Google Account. Unchecking this means (as I understand it) that, among other things, your YouTube watching behaviour will not be used for ad targeting on non-Google websites. (That's about non-Google websites, but as I type the above, I just realized that maybe by "all other mediums" you meant other Google sites, like Google Search etc. But those already covered under "Ad personalisation" (the main toggle at https://adssettings.google.com/ https://adssettings.google.com/) so I'm not quite sure the premise of the question is correct.)